4 ms·

This is what annoys me, and this is my opinion so take it for what you paid for it: I don't think people are as committed to their social causes as they claim;

This is what annoys me, and this is my opinion so take it for what you paid for it: I don't think people are as committed to their social causes as they claim; they're more doing something as it's popular rather than for the true cause. The Chevy Bolt and Chevy Volt were both superb cars, however, they sorta got eschewed for not being en vogue. The Volt in particular was very well engineered with a unique powertrain that offered multiple advantages over battery electric and hybrids, while not being astronomically priced. What we're seeing is elitism, not environmentalism.

abracadaniel 4y ago
Both were popular cars though. They had good reputations and were hard to find, so people were buying them as fast as they were making them.
jterrys 4y ago
But that's not at all the reason why. Even the article explains it. They sold well but Chevrolet's quality control is bad. They lost money because of recalls and lack of good control processes to make these cars. They ran a cost benefit analysis and said, "fuck it, we'll continue making shittier cars". It also doesn't help that many U.S manufacturers opt into building Trucks and SUVs to avoid emission regulations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo
- nicenewtemp84 4y ago
  I own a Chevy Volt and frequent forums and a very popular FB group for volt owners. The gen1 volt basically had zero common problems other than an axle nut, and CV axles that wear out fast (because the axle handles forward motion but also reverse stress during Regen braking). The gen2 volt has an EGR valve/cooler problem, and a transmission shift linkage module that gives false readings. Both issues plague a high percentage of gen2 volts, and parts are nowhere to be found. Volts are sitting under warranty at dealerships for months sometimes waiting for parts. It honestly sounds like GM has more supplier problems than they do engineering or fundamental cost problems. If they quality controlled their suppliers better, and demanded reimbursememt for failed components from suppliers (basically a warranty from their supplier) they would be much better of. Also, some of this is a programming fault. GM is often good at this. Don't make the failure mode of something result in the car bricking itself. The shifter issue stems from the fact the gear position sensor fails and tells people to "shift to park" before you can start the car. Was that REALLY required? Can I honestly not start my car if I'm in D? I'm already forced to press the brake pedal anyway. So Jesus let me start it in whatever gear you think I'm in. Maybe there's a governmemt rule I suppose. I just wish things defaulted to not bricking themselves over a technicality. Car technically functions, mechanical selector is moving correcrly. Safety switch fails.
  - zamnos 4y ago
    Can you describe the "bricking" a bit more closely? The only problem you've described is having to shift to park before you can start the car, with the brake engaged, which is fairly common, and hardly sounds like your car is bricked. I'm hoping to pick up a Volt or other hybrid, because I don't have a garage I can charge an EV in, but not if they're prone to actual bricking.
    - nicenewtemp84 4y ago
      Youve described the working condition yes. But when the sensor fails, an owner can not start their car even when it is in park because the sensor thinks it's not no matter what you do. The wait for this part seems to be 2 weeks for the lucky ones, and 6 months for the ultra unlucky ones. Typical seems 2 months. Similar for the EGR system parts which is even sadder because cleaning it doesnt take long and would get the people another year or two until more parts are available.
  - bsder 4y ago
    > If they quality controlled their suppliers better, and demanded reimbursememt for failed components from suppliers (basically a warranty from their supplier) they would be much better of. No, GM would be much better off if they made their own damn components and quit outsourcing everything in the universe. The small companies have figured out that nobody can replace them because there is no competitor who can absorb their orders. Consequently, they can threaten to declare bankruptcy if they get hit with too high a penalty.
    - nicenewtemp84 4y ago
      I don't know if any other company but Tesla is basically making everything. Very impressive. I watched a breakdown of their heat pump HVAC unit vs a competitor. Less than half the parts, less than 1/3 of the hoses and connections (aka failure points)
      - nradov 4y ago
dsfyu404ed 4y ago
The demographics who both buy new cars and buy EV in 2016-present wouldn't be caught dead buying something from GM. No wonder it went over about as well as the Subaru Baja. Slap a Toyota or maybe Honda badge on the grill and the Bolt/Volt would have flown off the shelves.
tibbydudeza 4y ago
Indeed but they were not committed to it like VW is with the ID.3 and ID.2. The gig was up when they stopped selling the Sonic and said their future was just trucks and SUV's.
AtlasBarfed 4y ago
In many ways an EV is a superior to ICE: - quieter - charge at home / no gas station - quicker and smoother acceleration and handling - less components (less breakdowns ... in theory) - cheaper maintenance - cheaper operation (electricity SHOULD be cheaper than gas) - one pedal driving - no air pollution - will be cheaper than ICE at initial cost very soon, and will eventually be much cheaper. The downsides are long distance range + recharging times for those trips The point is that EVs aren't primarily an environmental cause. For your typical american it will be a simple selfish rational choice. I would guess in about five years this will be the choice for the new car buyer: - buy an electric car for $25000 - $30000 that will cost $2000 / yr between recharging and maintenance, and has resale value - buy an ICE for $40000 that will cost $4000 / yr between gas and maintenance, but those two long trips you take a year will be a half hour faster. Oh, and its resale value is basically nothing since ICE is being phased out. These are rational economic decisions, by the standards of what the "science" of Economics thinks is "rational" (generally speaking: think short term and only about yourself). Now, the used EV market is a bit thin now, but that is changing rapidly. The only thing that changes the calculus is the battery replacement and the fact that used buyers aren't resale/tradein focused. Consider how new cars are financed (and BOY are they financed these days, with 7-10 year loans!). And this goes to a lot of my thinking on how EVs and alt energy are going to inflict a shrinking economies of lessening scale on the oil and ICE industries: why would a bank finance an oil exploration/development project on the scale of 10-20 years right now? Soon, why would a bank finance a 7-10 year loan on an ICE? A core part of that loan is the value of a car, but if the innovation rate and adoption rate of EVs is as rapid as it is (I think it will get faster once 5-10 big automakers really get cranking), the value of an ICE car bought new looks to depreciate EVEN FASTER than it normally does. I would argue that the 7-year value of a newly purchased ICE today is half or less of what it conventionally is viewed as (and ICE cars are now much more reliable than even 10 years ago, which underpins a lot of the 7-10 year loans). Have the banks caught on to this? probably not, they need to encounter some "rude awakenings". Finally, consider how much industry focuses your choice. Do you think the car companies are going to EV strictly because it is "trendy" and that regulatory agencies are forcing it? No. They are going because of economic realities. Tesla is allegedly at 33% margin on its cars, and the cost projections for its most expensive components (the batteries) is down. Way down. Probably will drop by half in just a couple years with LFP / Sodium Ion advances, and whatever comes out of Solid State / Sulfur / whatever CATL is doing. A car company today has a choice: keep making ICE cars that 5-10 years will cost $10000 MORE than an EV, or make the EV transition. (again, per above, an EV is a fundamentally superior vehicle for consumers in most ways). The investors in auto companies know this. BMW, VW and other CEOs have been fired recently because they have squandered or failed to start the EV transition. The investors know that BEVs will cause apocalyptic disruption to automakers, and you are a dead man standing if you don't have a BEV engineering team spun up yesterday.
piyh 4y ago
>I don't think people are as committed to their social causes as they claim I'd have to pay $10-15k more money to get a smaller car that wouldn't fit my young family loaded up for a 2 night trip at my sisters. We'd have to stop at the one charger available in a 2 hour radius off our route, and still would risk getting stranded due to range issues if driving during the winter. We make these trips monthly. It's not elitism, it's that people have economic constraints, the electrics cars in the marketplace are at a cost differential that equates to a year of college, and have huge real world disadvantages compared to lower cost alternatives.
- travisporter 4y ago
  I agree it's not elitism. Real world constraints are the main issue. But still, you are not the typical driver by making a 300+ mile round trip every month. The real issue is charging infrastructure. I'm sure you wouldn't mind a 10 min break in an ioniq 5 or similar to go 20-80%, but these are few and far between right now.
giraffe_lady 4y ago
The thing is that buying a new car of any kind actively works against a future that solves the problem merely attenuated by buying an electric car. You can have the same impact by keeping your current car and simply driving less. People willing to spend $15k on this cause are probably willing to take the equally impactful and less compromising step of changing their transport and consumption habits, instead. So you're probably right that what's left is mostly people participating in a cultural trend. You're just wrong that people are refusing to solve the problem through electric cars, since electric cars don't solve the problem. People are acting reasonably in response to that, there's no inconsistency or hypocrisy in it.
nradov 4y ago
The GM Voltec drivetrain was technically excellent, but they put it in the wrong vehicle. Small sedans (or pseudo hatchbacks) like the Volt are a dying market niche. The interior was cramped, especially the back seat. If GM had put the same drivetrain into a compact crossover SUV with a little more interior comfort and cargo space then it would have been more successful. Look how popular the Toyota RAV4 Prime plug-in hybrid SUV is.

abracadaniel 4y ago

Both were popular cars though. They had good reputations and were hard to find, so people were buying them as fast as they were making them.

jterrys 4y ago

But that's not at all the reason why. Even the article explains it. They sold well but Chevrolet's quality control is bad. They lost money because of recalls and lack of good control processes to make these cars. They ran a cost benefit analysis and said, "fuck it, we'll continue making shittier cars". It also doesn't help that many U.S manufacturers opt into building Trucks and SUVs to avoid emission regulations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo

nicenewtemp84 4y ago
I own a Chevy Volt and frequent forums and a very popular FB group for volt owners. The gen1 volt basically had zero common problems other than an axle nut, and CV axles that wear out fast (because the axle handles forward motion but also reverse stress during Regen braking). The gen2 volt has an EGR valve/cooler problem, and a transmission shift linkage module that gives false readings. Both issues plague a high percentage of gen2 volts, and parts are nowhere to be found. Volts are sitting under warranty at dealerships for months sometimes waiting for parts. It honestly sounds like GM has more supplier problems than they do engineering or fundamental cost problems. If they quality controlled their suppliers better, and demanded reimbursememt for failed components from suppliers (basically a warranty from their supplier) they would be much better of. Also, some of this is a programming fault. GM is often good at this. Don't make the failure mode of something result in the car bricking itself. The shifter issue stems from the fact the gear position sensor fails and tells people to "shift to park" before you can start the car. Was that REALLY required? Can I honestly not start my car if I'm in D? I'm already forced to press the brake pedal anyway. So Jesus let me start it in whatever gear you think I'm in. Maybe there's a governmemt rule I suppose. I just wish things defaulted to not bricking themselves over a technicality. Car technically functions, mechanical selector is moving correcrly. Safety switch fails.
- zamnos 4y ago
  Can you describe the "bricking" a bit more closely? The only problem you've described is having to shift to park before you can start the car, with the brake engaged, which is fairly common, and hardly sounds like your car is bricked. I'm hoping to pick up a Volt or other hybrid, because I don't have a garage I can charge an EV in, but not if they're prone to actual bricking.
  - nicenewtemp84 4y ago
    Youve described the working condition yes. But when the sensor fails, an owner can not start their car even when it is in park because the sensor thinks it's not no matter what you do. The wait for this part seems to be 2 weeks for the lucky ones, and 6 months for the ultra unlucky ones. Typical seems 2 months. Similar for the EGR system parts which is even sadder because cleaning it doesnt take long and would get the people another year or two until more parts are available.
- bsder 4y ago
  > If they quality controlled their suppliers better, and demanded reimbursememt for failed components from suppliers (basically a warranty from their supplier) they would be much better of. No, GM would be much better off if they made their own damn components and quit outsourcing everything in the universe. The small companies have figured out that nobody can replace them because there is no competitor who can absorb their orders. Consequently, they can threaten to declare bankruptcy if they get hit with too high a penalty.
  - nicenewtemp84 4y ago
    I don't know if any other company but Tesla is basically making everything. Very impressive. I watched a breakdown of their heat pump HVAC unit vs a competitor. Less than half the parts, less than 1/3 of the hoses and connections (aka failure points)
    - nradov 4y ago

dsfyu404ed 4y ago

The demographics who both buy new cars and buy EV in 2016-present wouldn't be caught dead buying something from GM. No wonder it went over about as well as the Subaru Baja. Slap a Toyota or maybe Honda badge on the grill and the Bolt/Volt would have flown off the shelves.

tibbydudeza 4y ago

Indeed but they were not committed to it like VW is with the ID.3 and ID.2. The gig was up when they stopped selling the Sonic and said their future was just trucks and SUV's.

AtlasBarfed 4y ago

In many ways an EV is a superior to ICE: - quieter - charge at home / no gas station - quicker and smoother acceleration and handling - less components (less breakdowns ... in theory) - cheaper maintenance - cheaper operation (electricity SHOULD be cheaper than gas) - one pedal driving - no air pollution - will be cheaper than ICE at initial cost very soon, and will eventually be much cheaper. The downsides are long distance range + recharging times for those trips The point is that EVs aren't primarily an environmental cause. For your typical american it will be a simple selfish rational choice. I would guess in about five years this will be the choice for the new car buyer: - buy an electric car for $25000 - $30000 that will cost $2000 / yr between recharging and maintenance, and has resale value - buy an ICE for $40000 that will cost $4000 / yr between gas and maintenance, but those two long trips you take a year will be a half hour faster. Oh, and its resale value is basically nothing since ICE is being phased out. These are rational economic decisions, by the standards of what the "science" of Economics thinks is "rational" (generally speaking: think short term and only about yourself). Now, the used EV market is a bit thin now, but that is changing rapidly. The only thing that changes the calculus is the battery replacement and the fact that used buyers aren't resale/tradein focused. Consider how new cars are financed (and BOY are they financed these days, with 7-10 year loans!). And this goes to a lot of my thinking on how EVs and alt energy are going to inflict a shrinking economies of lessening scale on the oil and ICE industries: why would a bank finance an oil exploration/development project on the scale of 10-20 years right now? Soon, why would a bank finance a 7-10 year loan on an ICE? A core part of that loan is the value of a car, but if the innovation rate and adoption rate of EVs is as rapid as it is (I think it will get faster once 5-10 big automakers really get cranking), the value of an ICE car bought new looks to depreciate EVEN FASTER than it normally does. I would argue that the 7-year value of a newly purchased ICE today is half or less of what it conventionally is viewed as (and ICE cars are now much more reliable than even 10 years ago, which underpins a lot of the 7-10 year loans). Have the banks caught on to this? probably not, they need to encounter some "rude awakenings". Finally, consider how much industry focuses your choice. Do you think the car companies are going to EV strictly because it is "trendy" and that regulatory agencies are forcing it? No. They are going because of economic realities. Tesla is allegedly at 33% margin on its cars, and the cost projections for its most expensive components (the batteries) is down. Way down. Probably will drop by half in just a couple years with LFP / Sodium Ion advances, and whatever comes out of Solid State / Sulfur / whatever CATL is doing. A car company today has a choice: keep making ICE cars that 5-10 years will cost $10000 MORE than an EV, or make the EV transition. (again, per above, an EV is a fundamentally superior vehicle for consumers in most ways). The investors in auto companies know this. BMW, VW and other CEOs have been fired recently because they have squandered or failed to start the EV transition. The investors know that BEVs will cause apocalyptic disruption to automakers, and you are a dead man standing if you don't have a BEV engineering team spun up yesterday.

piyh 4y ago

>I don't think people are as committed to their social causes as they claim I'd have to pay $10-15k more money to get a smaller car that wouldn't fit my young family loaded up for a 2 night trip at my sisters. We'd have to stop at the one charger available in a 2 hour radius off our route, and still would risk getting stranded due to range issues if driving during the winter. We make these trips monthly. It's not elitism, it's that people have economic constraints, the electrics cars in the marketplace are at a cost differential that equates to a year of college, and have huge real world disadvantages compared to lower cost alternatives.

travisporter 4y ago
I agree it's not elitism. Real world constraints are the main issue. But still, you are not the typical driver by making a 300+ mile round trip every month. The real issue is charging infrastructure. I'm sure you wouldn't mind a 10 min break in an ioniq 5 or similar to go 20-80%, but these are few and far between right now.

giraffe_lady 4y ago

The thing is that buying a new car of any kind actively works against a future that solves the problem merely attenuated by buying an electric car. You can have the same impact by keeping your current car and simply driving less. People willing to spend $15k on this cause are probably willing to take the equally impactful and less compromising step of changing their transport and consumption habits, instead. So you're probably right that what's left is mostly people participating in a cultural trend. You're just wrong that people are refusing to solve the problem through electric cars, since electric cars don't solve the problem. People are acting reasonably in response to that, there's no inconsistency or hypocrisy in it.

nradov 4y ago

The GM Voltec drivetrain was technically excellent, but they put it in the wrong vehicle. Small sedans (or pseudo hatchbacks) like the Volt are a dying market niche. The interior was cramped, especially the back seat. If GM had put the same drivetrain into a compact crossover SUV with a little more interior comfort and cargo space then it would have been more successful. Look how popular the Toyota RAV4 Prime plug-in hybrid SUV is.