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> It will not be an European one for sure. No-one forces Europe to allow such high immigration...

epolanski 4y ago
Actually immigration is what is saving our economy and why we're not struggling yet at a social/financial level with the whole retirees issue like Japan is.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  No, it's not. Immigration is 'easy' as it avoids making the changes to adapt to stagnant/decreasing population, but those changes will have to made one day because population cannot keep growing indefinitely, so it's just kicking the can down the road. On the other hand, high immigration creates many social issues. Frankly the debate has been poisoned by ideology and political agendas to the point people actually believe that there is no choice. But, really it has not been going well at all for the social and cultural fabric of European countries and just stating that means risking being labelled whatever nasty term you can think of.
  - epolanski 4y ago
    I think it is you stating ideologically poisoned opinions. Regular (even ignoring irregular) immigration contributes for 10% of the GDP in Italy alone. All stats clearly show how regular (and even irregular) immigration is a high benefit to European countries. I'm Italian and I can guarantee you that many sectors of our economy would be dead without immigrants, especially our precious food industry. Immigrants pay taxes here, produce goods here, consume here, but they get little out of it as they are neither schooled nor retire here. See, e.g. key findings here: https://ec.europa.eu/migrant-integration/library-document/projecting-net-fiscal-impact-immigration-eu_en https://ec.europa.eu/migrant-integration/library-document/pr... The other part of your comment is similarly loaded. Yes, it happens that immigration may lead to social tensions. That's very true. But the experience differs wildly and real stats have to be taken into account. E.g. In Germany crime is at all times low after having taken more than 2 million refugees and regular/irregular immigrants in a decade. They have been absolutely core to German growth and I am hardly pressed to state that taking so many immigrants has been anything but a net positive.
    - mytailorisrich 4y ago
      > Regular (even ignoring irregular) immigration contributes for 10% of the GDP in Italy alone. I haven't denied that. But that's not the point, which you are ignoring. In fact your reply illustrate my previous comment that immigration is the easy option for industry, but it is not sustainable. > I think it is you stating ideologically poisoned opinions QED. Have a nice day.
    - finikytou 4y ago
      in many european countries 40-50% of this immigration is unemployed. that's not a net positive. immigration was a positive when unemployment wasn't high and cost of life wasnt that crazy high in western europe.it was also a time where western europe had industries and blue collar jobs. those jobs are gone and bringing millions of people from poor countries w/ low education background will only bring false hopes to those people.the past 20 years did not require mass immigration. and for germany crimes can you break it down into the type of crimes so that we see that your stat doesn't hold? best look at countries that had mass immigration for long like sweden. how is it going crime wise? has for industries that thrived thanks to immigration. I know the nice NYT story about parmagienno saved thanks to hard working immigrants. Why not? but most of the time industries that struggle to hire native are paying salaries that wouldn't allow natives to raise a family while allowing immigrants to buy a house at home in a few years. this is why they favor mass immigration so that they can keep the salaries low. we saw with covid and the stop of immigration that salaries in UK for truck drivers went up for instance. its offer and demand 101
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      >Immigrants pay taxes here, produce goods here, consume here, but they get little out of it as they are neither schooled nor retire here. Those aren't immigrants. Those are "guest workers", or expats. Immigrants are people who move to a new country permanently.
- phillipp_8734 4y ago
  [flagged]
finikytou 4y ago
actually yes. european union declared "family policies" not to be part of their work and leave it to individuals to decide whether they want to make or no children. they even punish Hungary for doing it and call Orban a far right activist for being nationalist (like most of the world countries are). at the same time they finance foreign countries so that they can have children policies (https://twitter.com/EUDelegationTur/status/16033126425667829760 https://twitter.com/EUDelegationTur/status/16033126425667829...). it is obvious that european unelected leaders of the EU are favoring mass immigration vs birth/child policies and the fact that people like you and most of the media is lying about it is the proof that they don't think people would approve. in most of EU countries you don't get money/help/incentives for having children when your income is high or even average. You only get help when you are poor. this obviously tends to make people not to want to have children. South Korea took the opposite direction (too late but still) and now heavily finance child birth at all incomes.
- orwin 4y ago
  It's obviously false, France give plenty of incentives for couples to have children,I think this year the national budget is more than 5 billion (and truly more than 8 billions, because 3 of the 5 are matched by municipalities), I've never heard of Europe attacking the CAF or anything. And if you're rich enough to not qualify for direct help, the tax breaks your child provides you is greater than the maximum amount the poorest families get for a child. Also even using private daycare, if they have reglemented prices, the CAF and muni pay for two third of the real price, at least in my area. And you also won't pay the real full price of the conservatory/music school. Nor you will pay the real full price of museum, school, sport and youth camp, no matter how rich you are. I've worked with children who lived in a manor in the center of Paris, and in the same camp I had children from the rural Jura (west Virginia Appalachian for the US people) and one child in foster care. The full price was 500 euros for two weeks (with rebates depending on how poor you are). This isn't the true price. You get help even if you're a top10 French business lawyer with a manor with garden in the '6eme' (maybe tmi, but it has been ten years). (BTW, all of what I listed do not come from the 5 billion I talked about in the beginning, the 5 billion is only what the branch 'family' from the CAF get, I think the total budget is close to 12 billion and cover a lot more than just family).

Actually immigration is what is saving our economy and why we're not struggling yet at a social/financial level with the whole retirees issue like Japan is.

mytailorisrich 4y ago
No, it's not. Immigration is 'easy' as it avoids making the changes to adapt to stagnant/decreasing population, but those changes will have to made one day because population cannot keep growing indefinitely, so it's just kicking the can down the road. On the other hand, high immigration creates many social issues. Frankly the debate has been poisoned by ideology and political agendas to the point people actually believe that there is no choice. But, really it has not been going well at all for the social and cultural fabric of European countries and just stating that means risking being labelled whatever nasty term you can think of.
- epolanski 4y ago
  I think it is you stating ideologically poisoned opinions. Regular (even ignoring irregular) immigration contributes for 10% of the GDP in Italy alone. All stats clearly show how regular (and even irregular) immigration is a high benefit to European countries. I'm Italian and I can guarantee you that many sectors of our economy would be dead without immigrants, especially our precious food industry. Immigrants pay taxes here, produce goods here, consume here, but they get little out of it as they are neither schooled nor retire here. See, e.g. key findings here: https://ec.europa.eu/migrant-integration/library-document/projecting-net-fiscal-impact-immigration-eu_en https://ec.europa.eu/migrant-integration/library-document/pr... The other part of your comment is similarly loaded. Yes, it happens that immigration may lead to social tensions. That's very true. But the experience differs wildly and real stats have to be taken into account. E.g. In Germany crime is at all times low after having taken more than 2 million refugees and regular/irregular immigrants in a decade. They have been absolutely core to German growth and I am hardly pressed to state that taking so many immigrants has been anything but a net positive.
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    > Regular (even ignoring irregular) immigration contributes for 10% of the GDP in Italy alone. I haven't denied that. But that's not the point, which you are ignoring. In fact your reply illustrate my previous comment that immigration is the easy option for industry, but it is not sustainable. > I think it is you stating ideologically poisoned opinions QED. Have a nice day.
  - finikytou 4y ago
    in many european countries 40-50% of this immigration is unemployed. that's not a net positive. immigration was a positive when unemployment wasn't high and cost of life wasnt that crazy high in western europe.it was also a time where western europe had industries and blue collar jobs. those jobs are gone and bringing millions of people from poor countries w/ low education background will only bring false hopes to those people.the past 20 years did not require mass immigration. and for germany crimes can you break it down into the type of crimes so that we see that your stat doesn't hold? best look at countries that had mass immigration for long like sweden. how is it going crime wise? has for industries that thrived thanks to immigration. I know the nice NYT story about parmagienno saved thanks to hard working immigrants. Why not? but most of the time industries that struggle to hire native are paying salaries that wouldn't allow natives to raise a family while allowing immigrants to buy a house at home in a few years. this is why they favor mass immigration so that they can keep the salaries low. we saw with covid and the stop of immigration that salaries in UK for truck drivers went up for instance. its offer and demand 101
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    >Immigrants pay taxes here, produce goods here, consume here, but they get little out of it as they are neither schooled nor retire here. Those aren't immigrants. Those are "guest workers", or expats. Immigrants are people who move to a new country permanently.
phillipp_8734 4y ago
[flagged]

finikytou 4y ago

actually yes. european union declared "family policies" not to be part of their work and leave it to individuals to decide whether they want to make or no children. they even punish Hungary for doing it and call Orban a far right activist for being nationalist (like most of the world countries are). at the same time they finance foreign countries so that they can have children policies (https://twitter.com/EUDelegationTur/status/16033126425667829760 https://twitter.com/EUDelegationTur/status/16033126425667829...). it is obvious that european unelected leaders of the EU are favoring mass immigration vs birth/child policies and the fact that people like you and most of the media is lying about it is the proof that they don't think people would approve. in most of EU countries you don't get money/help/incentives for having children when your income is high or even average. You only get help when you are poor. this obviously tends to make people not to want to have children. South Korea took the opposite direction (too late but still) and now heavily finance child birth at all incomes.

orwin 4y ago
It's obviously false, France give plenty of incentives for couples to have children,I think this year the national budget is more than 5 billion (and truly more than 8 billions, because 3 of the 5 are matched by municipalities), I've never heard of Europe attacking the CAF or anything. And if you're rich enough to not qualify for direct help, the tax breaks your child provides you is greater than the maximum amount the poorest families get for a child. Also even using private daycare, if they have reglemented prices, the CAF and muni pay for two third of the real price, at least in my area. And you also won't pay the real full price of the conservatory/music school. Nor you will pay the real full price of museum, school, sport and youth camp, no matter how rich you are. I've worked with children who lived in a manor in the center of Paris, and in the same camp I had children from the rural Jura (west Virginia Appalachian for the US people) and one child in foster care. The full price was 500 euros for two weeks (with rebates depending on how poor you are). This isn't the true price. You get help even if you're a top10 French business lawyer with a manor with garden in the '6eme' (maybe tmi, but it has been ten years). (BTW, all of what I listed do not come from the 5 billion I talked about in the beginning, the 5 billion is only what the branch 'family' from the CAF get, I think the total budget is close to 12 billion and cover a lot more than just family).