8 ms·

This is the first time I'm hearing about Software AG. From what I can tell it seems like they're an alternative/competitor to SAP? What's with Germany and burea

This is the first time I'm hearing about Software AG. From what I can tell it seems like they're an alternative/competitor to SAP? What's with Germany and bureaucratic enterprise software companies?

mschuster91 4y ago
> What's with Germany and bureaucratic enterprise software companies? German here. There aren't that many things we are world-famous for... but other than Oktoberfest, being experts in bureaucracy nightmares is definitely one of them.
- AdamN 4y ago
  As an American living in Germany, can confirm :-) I affectionately call my mailbox, the 'box of pain' for all the form letters I receive for various steps I need to take vis-a-vis the government, my landlord, utilities, and on it goes. Great bread and beer here though - no complaints.
  - expertentipp 4y ago
    Letterbox bullying is a thing in Germany. It's their tiny fetish they'll teach you.
  - belter 4y ago
    How many Waldorf-Frommer letters so far? :-)
    - expertentipp 4y ago
      > Waldorf-Frommer Lawyers working there deserve to feel suspension and duress about something that is important for them. Exactly as they make their victims feel.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Seems like it's Germany's jobs creation program. 1. Create nightmare bureaucracy. 2. SW companies and consultancies spring up, to help you deal with all the bureaucracy, for a fee of course. 3. Profit?
  - gmerc 4y ago
    Same as japan. it works.
  - misja111 4y ago
    4. SW companies and consultancies lobby for more regulation & bureaucracy
  - pgeorgi 4y ago
    Not really. Germany's bureaucracy stems from the Prussians, and they perfected it to an art form in the 19th century when SW companies and consultancies were practically unheard of. Seriously though, as long as you try to navigate the process (and maybe even ask for help and advice) and not try to outsmart the bureaucrats (which seems to be a favorite pastime all over the world), it can be a really smooth experience where you encounter helpful public workers where you wouldn't expect them.
    - oaiey 4y ago
      I would be very careful with that thought that in Prussia there was not some kind of profession (consultants) helping through he bureaucracy. It was the golden age of brokers etc. Not that I really know ;)
- rjzzleep 4y ago
  German bureaucracy always reminds me of the 12 tasks of Asterix and Obelix(you can find the whole episode in english on youtube). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CXAOiaX9CA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CXAOiaX9CA
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    German bureaucracy is like doing side-quest busywork in RPG videogames.
  - majewsky 4y ago
    Correct. It's nearly as bad as trying to get user support from Google.
    - rjzzleep 4y ago
      I got user support from Google once. It ended up being worse than before.
- orbifold 4y ago
  Being German and now getting first contact with bureaucracy in the US, I wouldn't be so sure that Germany is actually all that bad.
  - Arnt 4y ago
    I've dealt with bureaucracy in four countries and think Germany isn't so bad. I imagine it sucks if you ask them to speak English or make any sort of derogatory comments. My experience is more middle-of-the-road — some good experiences, some bad. Asking the bureaucrats how to achieve [whatever] helped sometimes, even if they winced at my grammar or pronounciation in the first years.
- nosianu 4y ago
  This is such a lame trope, and if you just repeat it without even considering its (biased) basis it does not make it better. As a proxy for "bureaucracy": Government effectiveness - Country rankings -- https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/wb_government_effectiveness/ https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/wb_government_effe... (US: 25, Germany: 26 - of 192) There are many, many countries with far worse and far less effective bureaucracy. In that list, the US is just one place above Germany, and as someone who has lived in the US for almost a decade, I had exactly that impression too. Anyone who thinks Germany is the example for bad bureaucracy needs to get out more, into the world, not just into the one or two dozen best places.
  - pavlov 4y ago
    Nowadays it’s the US at the forefront of actualizing Kafka’s vision of social interaction. One fine example is the phone/cable/newspaper/etc. contracts that you can’t cancel without spending 20+ minutes on the phone with a desperate customer service agent. Buying a car. Doing anything at a bank. Renting an apartment. Moving in and out. Doing your taxes. A lot of the daily life in USA is stuck in a bad 1950s time warp combined with a vicious cycle of MBA optimization to squeeze out every penny from you.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      I cannot relate to any of this. I call 611 and it was trivial to cancel and move my phone (with ATT/T-Mobile/Verizon). Cable was the same calling Comcast, although we only had cable internet. Newspaper, I do not know about, but California laws make it pretty easy. Buying a car, you just email the dealers until you find an agreeable price and it takes about 1 to 2 hours at the dealership to finish title/insurance/loan paperwork. Unless going for business loans or depositing cash, I can do all my bank related stuff on my computer, including mailing checks to anyone and refinancing a house. Renting and moving was trivial, at least as of 5 years ago. You search on Craigslist/apartment company website/Zillow. Email back and forth details, fill out pdf application online, use bank website’s bill pay to mail them a check, and move? Taxes are pretty easy unless you have a business, and even then it is doable yourself. Or hire a CPA. This one definitely could be better like in many other countries, but I can still do my own in a about 3 hours using IRS free fillable forms website. It is definitely easier than things were in the 1990s or 2000s, so I imagine it most certainly is not as bad as it was in the 1950s. I find it quite remarkable just how much of modern life I can do via a handheld device or laptop.
- croes 4y ago
  Bureaucracy is a matter of habit. If it's new to you it's almost always nightmarish.
davidkuennen 4y ago
I'm from Germany and hearing about them for the first time as well.
- Arnt 4y ago
  It's a big and fairly old firm. Enterprise, not at all consumer-oriented. The kind of software that's introduced into customer companies by management decree and that earns little friendship among the techs.
- sam_lowry_ 4y ago
  It's a B2B business that grew out of a mainframe database Adabas, then started to diversify "into XML", then analytics by buyouts. It is only tangentially a competitor to SAP in that they sell to the same public administrations and multi-billion corporations. They did little to make the world a better place, aside from commissioning a beautiful HQ building and employing the author of Saxon for a while. The core workforce is aging, the buyouts keep the middle management busy but do not always turn into new business lines.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Would you recommend working there? Not necessarily as a developer. I don't care about "disrupting the industry" or "making the world a better place through minimal message oriented transport layers", I just want a comfy well paying job with great promotion prospects.
    - codethief 4y ago
      > "making the world a better place through minimal message oriented transport layers" I knew I had heard this before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmpYxbBDQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmpYxbBDQw
- belter 4y ago
  First time you are hearing about the second biggest software company in Germany? What does that say about Software companies and the Germany economy?
johannes1234321 4y ago
Back in the days, 1970ies, 1980ies computers were sold mostly in that segment few companies survived till now. That segment fit the engineering mindset. That mindset however couldn't keep up with the dynamic innovative way silicon valley works, thus some old ones carried on and new came rarely. (Really simplified answer, ignoring segments like games, where German publishers also did quite a few things ... including bureaucratic Football (soccer) manager etc.)
belter 4y ago
They have been a competitor to IBM for many years. ADABAS is as critical for many companies as IMS and the Mainframe is for others.
LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
Vee arr ze Masters of the Bureauverse!1!! Edit: I wonder if you ever heard of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DATEV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DATEV ?

This is the first time I'm hearing about Software AG. From what I can tell it seems like they're an alternative/competitor to SAP? What's with Germany and bureaucratic enterprise software companies?

mschuster91 4y ago

> What's with Germany and bureaucratic enterprise software companies? German here. There aren't that many things we are world-famous for... but other than Oktoberfest, being experts in bureaucracy nightmares is definitely one of them.

AdamN 4y ago
As an American living in Germany, can confirm :-) I affectionately call my mailbox, the 'box of pain' for all the form letters I receive for various steps I need to take vis-a-vis the government, my landlord, utilities, and on it goes. Great bread and beer here though - no complaints.
- expertentipp 4y ago
  Letterbox bullying is a thing in Germany. It's their tiny fetish they'll teach you.
- belter 4y ago
  How many Waldorf-Frommer letters so far? :-)
  - expertentipp 4y ago
    > Waldorf-Frommer Lawyers working there deserve to feel suspension and duress about something that is important for them. Exactly as they make their victims feel.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Seems like it's Germany's jobs creation program. 1. Create nightmare bureaucracy. 2. SW companies and consultancies spring up, to help you deal with all the bureaucracy, for a fee of course. 3. Profit?
- gmerc 4y ago
  Same as japan. it works.
- misja111 4y ago
  4. SW companies and consultancies lobby for more regulation & bureaucracy
- pgeorgi 4y ago
  Not really. Germany's bureaucracy stems from the Prussians, and they perfected it to an art form in the 19th century when SW companies and consultancies were practically unheard of. Seriously though, as long as you try to navigate the process (and maybe even ask for help and advice) and not try to outsmart the bureaucrats (which seems to be a favorite pastime all over the world), it can be a really smooth experience where you encounter helpful public workers where you wouldn't expect them.
  - oaiey 4y ago
    I would be very careful with that thought that in Prussia there was not some kind of profession (consultants) helping through he bureaucracy. It was the golden age of brokers etc. Not that I really know ;)
rjzzleep 4y ago
German bureaucracy always reminds me of the 12 tasks of Asterix and Obelix(you can find the whole episode in english on youtube). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CXAOiaX9CA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CXAOiaX9CA
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  German bureaucracy is like doing side-quest busywork in RPG videogames.
- majewsky 4y ago
  Correct. It's nearly as bad as trying to get user support from Google.
  - rjzzleep 4y ago
    I got user support from Google once. It ended up being worse than before.
orbifold 4y ago
Being German and now getting first contact with bureaucracy in the US, I wouldn't be so sure that Germany is actually all that bad.
- Arnt 4y ago
  I've dealt with bureaucracy in four countries and think Germany isn't so bad. I imagine it sucks if you ask them to speak English or make any sort of derogatory comments. My experience is more middle-of-the-road — some good experiences, some bad. Asking the bureaucrats how to achieve [whatever] helped sometimes, even if they winced at my grammar or pronounciation in the first years.
nosianu 4y ago
This is such a lame trope, and if you just repeat it without even considering its (biased) basis it does not make it better. As a proxy for "bureaucracy": Government effectiveness - Country rankings -- https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/wb_government_effectiveness/ https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/wb_government_effe... (US: 25, Germany: 26 - of 192) There are many, many countries with far worse and far less effective bureaucracy. In that list, the US is just one place above Germany, and as someone who has lived in the US for almost a decade, I had exactly that impression too. Anyone who thinks Germany is the example for bad bureaucracy needs to get out more, into the world, not just into the one or two dozen best places.
- pavlov 4y ago
  Nowadays it’s the US at the forefront of actualizing Kafka’s vision of social interaction. One fine example is the phone/cable/newspaper/etc. contracts that you can’t cancel without spending 20+ minutes on the phone with a desperate customer service agent. Buying a car. Doing anything at a bank. Renting an apartment. Moving in and out. Doing your taxes. A lot of the daily life in USA is stuck in a bad 1950s time warp combined with a vicious cycle of MBA optimization to squeeze out every penny from you.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    I cannot relate to any of this. I call 611 and it was trivial to cancel and move my phone (with ATT/T-Mobile/Verizon). Cable was the same calling Comcast, although we only had cable internet. Newspaper, I do not know about, but California laws make it pretty easy. Buying a car, you just email the dealers until you find an agreeable price and it takes about 1 to 2 hours at the dealership to finish title/insurance/loan paperwork. Unless going for business loans or depositing cash, I can do all my bank related stuff on my computer, including mailing checks to anyone and refinancing a house. Renting and moving was trivial, at least as of 5 years ago. You search on Craigslist/apartment company website/Zillow. Email back and forth details, fill out pdf application online, use bank website’s bill pay to mail them a check, and move? Taxes are pretty easy unless you have a business, and even then it is doable yourself. Or hire a CPA. This one definitely could be better like in many other countries, but I can still do my own in a about 3 hours using IRS free fillable forms website. It is definitely easier than things were in the 1990s or 2000s, so I imagine it most certainly is not as bad as it was in the 1950s. I find it quite remarkable just how much of modern life I can do via a handheld device or laptop.
croes 4y ago
Bureaucracy is a matter of habit. If it's new to you it's almost always nightmarish.

davidkuennen 4y ago

I'm from Germany and hearing about them for the first time as well.

Arnt 4y ago
It's a big and fairly old firm. Enterprise, not at all consumer-oriented. The kind of software that's introduced into customer companies by management decree and that earns little friendship among the techs.
sam_lowry_ 4y ago
It's a B2B business that grew out of a mainframe database Adabas, then started to diversify "into XML", then analytics by buyouts. It is only tangentially a competitor to SAP in that they sell to the same public administrations and multi-billion corporations. They did little to make the world a better place, aside from commissioning a beautiful HQ building and employing the author of Saxon for a while. The core workforce is aging, the buyouts keep the middle management busy but do not always turn into new business lines.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Would you recommend working there? Not necessarily as a developer. I don't care about "disrupting the industry" or "making the world a better place through minimal message oriented transport layers", I just want a comfy well paying job with great promotion prospects.
  - codethief 4y ago
    > "making the world a better place through minimal message oriented transport layers" I knew I had heard this before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmpYxbBDQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmpYxbBDQw
belter 4y ago
First time you are hearing about the second biggest software company in Germany? What does that say about Software companies and the Germany economy?

johannes1234321 4y ago

Back in the days, 1970ies, 1980ies computers were sold mostly in that segment few companies survived till now. That segment fit the engineering mindset. That mindset however couldn't keep up with the dynamic innovative way silicon valley works, thus some old ones carried on and new came rarely. (Really simplified answer, ignoring segments like games, where German publishers also did quite a few things ... including bureaucratic Football (soccer) manager etc.)

belter 4y ago

They have been a competitor to IBM for many years. ADABAS is as critical for many companies as IMS and the Mainframe is for others.

LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago

Vee arr ze Masters of the Bureauverse!1!! Edit: I wonder if you ever heard of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DATEV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DATEV ?