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Recently in a conversation with my daughter (16) taking about how much cash she had on hand to spend I was confused until I realized her use of “wallet” meant A

by hnbear 3y ago

Recently in a conversation with my daughter (16) taking about how much cash she had on hand to spend I was confused until I realized her use of “wallet” meant Apple Wallet, and physical cash is something off in her room in a drawer somewhere. Having come into banking age with Apple Cash and a Chase debit card both in her Apple Wallet she treats that as first-party financial transactions and anything not tap to pay is written off as archaic. I think kids growing will be happy without any physical cards and banking will all be app driven. It’s only having grown up needing something to carry all my physical cards that I treat that as my primary wallet. And I’m now Apple Pay first, and then keep a debit card, a credit card and my drivers license in a MagSafe wallet on my phone. Everything else is in a drawer at home. Even specialist cards like ny health and transit FSA cards are in Apple Wallet. I can pay for NYC MetroNorth and MTA subway fares on an FSA card through Apple Pay which cuts down on the misc single use cards I’ve had to carry. Even things like COVID ID are electronic in Apple Wallet. It’s fantastic to cut it all down.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
I’m oldish, and no longer carry around a wallet. I don’t even whip out a phone to play for things, I just tap my watch. This was after 9 years in China, where, given that WeChat payments wouldn’t support foreigners without Chinese ID cards yet, I carried around wads of RMB the whole time. I also have a MagSafe wallet. But if Washington state would support digital driver licenses and Seattle metro had a wallet based transit pay app, I wouldn’t really need that either.
- asplake 3y ago
  Also oldish. In our household we refer to coins as “parking tokens”, but even that usage is becoming obsolete (notwithstanding that parking machine UX is too often a horror show)
  - zamnos 3y ago
    I've taken it for granted that my parking meters take credit card at the meter (or at the payment machine), but on top of that there's an app/website and you can plug in the serial number of the parking space to pay.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I have a big bucket full of coins that I need to take to the coin machine at the supermarket while such still exist.
devjab 3y ago
I’m 40 and I’m in the same boat as your daughter. I no longer carry a real wallet. This isn’t just due to Apple/Google pay but also because basically everything related to your identification is now available as an App here in Denmark, so you can get your social security card, your drivers license and your national 2factor login on your phone along the digital wallet. I do still keep around $100-200 worth of Danish Kroner in cash in my bag, however, and I almost never need it, but it’s nice to always have enough for a night in a hotel, a really long cab-ride or groceries for those times where the systems break down.
pjmlp 3y ago
She would have a hard time visiting Germany, where "No cards accepted" is still a thing in 2023. When I arrived to Germany two decades ago, living on digital payments (debit cards) was already common practice in Italy, Portugal, Switzerland and France, so it was kind of shock the money only culture around here, that is still quite prevalent.
- formerly_proven 3y ago
  > She would have a hard time visiting Germany, where "No cards accepted" is still a thing in 2023. Have you been in germany this year?
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    I live in Germany, and can point you to several restaurants on the city center where I live, that have "No cards accepted" quite visible on the window, or the typical blackboard menus.
  - slowmotiony 3y ago
    I sure have, I live here! Tried to pay for my croissant and juice in Penny Markt just this morning, i trid to test paying with my credit card and got the usual "Keine ausländische Karte!" :-) And dont even try using a card in a restaurant or a bar, the terminal always, and i mean always just happens to be "broken" at this particular time.
    - messe 3y ago
      That wasn’t my experience in Munich recently, although I could see it being the case outside of larger cities.
    - Freak_NL 3y ago
      Well yeah, paying with a credit card in physical stores is rare in Europe (and usually considered very strange). People use debit cards or cash (the distribution between these varies per country). I've seen Americans try to pay with a credit card in a supermarket in the Netherlands and have it fail. It probably works more often now, but don't expect it to work everywhere. People in Europe tend to only use a credit card for online purchases outside of their own country; most people don't have a credit card at all. Online purchases tend to be done with national systems like the Dutch IDeal (this even works with large international shops like Amazon and Steam).
somethoughts 3y ago
Haha - your story reminded me of this sketch - might find this funny! Gen Z's be like... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpYyFuHjdB0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpYyFuHjdB0 I have kids who will be that age soon. Wondering how much more true this will be in the next 3-4 years.
paganel 3y ago
> I think kids growing will be happy without any physical cards and banking will all be app driven. That's mostly valid for middle-class kids, but there's lots and lots of unbanked or "badly" banked (i.e. banking with what are basically pawnbrokers) poorer people, so cash going away or being tightly regulated will be a huge disadvantage for their kids going forward.
alwayslikethis 3y ago
Until the day your phone breaks for some reason, or one of those payment monopolists decides you shouldn't be able to spend your money because you modified your phone without their permission, and you find yourself unable to pay for the bill. Eliminating cash also eliminates the possibility of having transactions that are difficult to trace for whatever reason, at least in small amounts. What if something you take for granted today becomes illegal (weed, abortion, anything you may think of) and the government will now have near total ability to see what you bought. It's a bleak future without privacy.
- mettamage 3y ago
  > Until the day your phone breaks for some reason I happen to have a second Apple device on me at all times: my watch. Risk of this happening is low. Still a risk though.
- altacc 3y ago
  The "phone breaks" argument is weak as plenty of wallets are lost and sometimes even attached to phone and then both are lost. The strong argument is that things don't even have to be illegal to become impossible to pay for using digital currency. Look at the adult industry, where it is nearing impossibility to find a merchant to support payments for legal adult services. Better laws & privacy protections will help but won't ever fully solve the problem. (And before anyone else jumps in, neither do cryptocurrencies in their current state.)
  - alwayslikethis 3y ago
    Cryptocurrencies, especially the stronger privacy protecting ones like Monero mitigates tracking to a great extent and is permissionless, requiring no authorization from a third party to use your money. Though by doing so it also attracts criminal and law enforcement attention and is likely to be banned upon widespread adoption.
    - altacc 3y ago
      No cryptocurrency in its current or foreseeable future state are useful as daily methods of payment, for many reasons. Cryptocurrencies are volatile speculation instruments, not a practical currency as they lack the necessary combination of stable value, widespread adoption and either usefulness outside of limited markets or privacy friendly method to convert. Monero might not be as routinely traceable as other cryptocurrencies but any conversion to or from fiat is likely to be traceable or dodgy enough to get a bad rate of return. To be a truly useful currency someone has to be able to earn it one day and spend it freely in the overwhelming majority of commerce situations a week or month later for the equivalent value. That is not going to happen with cryptocurrency in the foreseeable future. The majority of people who claim it will be or should be are typically those most interested in cryptocurrency being a volatile speculation instrument, which defeats their stated goal.
feygeubdjvf 3y ago
that makes it even funnier if you know how the rest of the world operates. for the past decade most countries (china, india, brazil, eu, etc) have central bank issued APIs for instant payments. without being a client of visa, apple, etc... anyone can instantly transter money around. some banks require an app, others allow via sms, etc. the US seems like it is stuck in time, still swiping credit cards, and only having a glimpse of the world via toys their kids play with, until they are old enough to go back to the american way and start swiping cards.
kitsunesoba 3y ago
Mid-30s here and the only cards I carry are my ID and a couple of "catchall" credit cards to serve as a fallback where Apple Pay doesn't work, and unless I know I'm going to a cash-only bar or something I don't carry cash. Debit cards are practically never in my wallet unless I'm going out to withdraw cash. Way too risky to be carrying around a direct line to my primary bank account.

by hnbear 3y ago

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

I’m oldish, and no longer carry around a wallet. I don’t even whip out a phone to play for things, I just tap my watch. This was after 9 years in China, where, given that WeChat payments wouldn’t support foreigners without Chinese ID cards yet, I carried around wads of RMB the whole time. I also have a MagSafe wallet. But if Washington state would support digital driver licenses and Seattle metro had a wallet based transit pay app, I wouldn’t really need that either.

asplake 3y ago
Also oldish. In our household we refer to coins as “parking tokens”, but even that usage is becoming obsolete (notwithstanding that parking machine UX is too often a horror show)
- zamnos 3y ago
  I've taken it for granted that my parking meters take credit card at the meter (or at the payment machine), but on top of that there's an app/website and you can plug in the serial number of the parking space to pay.
- ghaff 3y ago
  I have a big bucket full of coins that I need to take to the coin machine at the supermarket while such still exist.

devjab 3y ago

I’m 40 and I’m in the same boat as your daughter. I no longer carry a real wallet. This isn’t just due to Apple/Google pay but also because basically everything related to your identification is now available as an App here in Denmark, so you can get your social security card, your drivers license and your national 2factor login on your phone along the digital wallet. I do still keep around $100-200 worth of Danish Kroner in cash in my bag, however, and I almost never need it, but it’s nice to always have enough for a night in a hotel, a really long cab-ride or groceries for those times where the systems break down.

pjmlp 3y ago

She would have a hard time visiting Germany, where "No cards accepted" is still a thing in 2023. When I arrived to Germany two decades ago, living on digital payments (debit cards) was already common practice in Italy, Portugal, Switzerland and France, so it was kind of shock the money only culture around here, that is still quite prevalent.

formerly_proven 3y ago
> She would have a hard time visiting Germany, where "No cards accepted" is still a thing in 2023. Have you been in germany this year?
- pjmlp 3y ago
  I live in Germany, and can point you to several restaurants on the city center where I live, that have "No cards accepted" quite visible on the window, or the typical blackboard menus.
- slowmotiony 3y ago
  I sure have, I live here! Tried to pay for my croissant and juice in Penny Markt just this morning, i trid to test paying with my credit card and got the usual "Keine ausländische Karte!" :-) And dont even try using a card in a restaurant or a bar, the terminal always, and i mean always just happens to be "broken" at this particular time.
  - messe 3y ago
    That wasn’t my experience in Munich recently, although I could see it being the case outside of larger cities.
  - Freak_NL 3y ago
    Well yeah, paying with a credit card in physical stores is rare in Europe (and usually considered very strange). People use debit cards or cash (the distribution between these varies per country). I've seen Americans try to pay with a credit card in a supermarket in the Netherlands and have it fail. It probably works more often now, but don't expect it to work everywhere. People in Europe tend to only use a credit card for online purchases outside of their own country; most people don't have a credit card at all. Online purchases tend to be done with national systems like the Dutch IDeal (this even works with large international shops like Amazon and Steam).

somethoughts 3y ago

Haha - your story reminded me of this sketch - might find this funny! Gen Z's be like... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpYyFuHjdB0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpYyFuHjdB0 I have kids who will be that age soon. Wondering how much more true this will be in the next 3-4 years.

paganel 3y ago

> I think kids growing will be happy without any physical cards and banking will all be app driven. That's mostly valid for middle-class kids, but there's lots and lots of unbanked or "badly" banked (i.e. banking with what are basically pawnbrokers) poorer people, so cash going away or being tightly regulated will be a huge disadvantage for their kids going forward.

alwayslikethis 3y ago

Until the day your phone breaks for some reason, or one of those payment monopolists decides you shouldn't be able to spend your money because you modified your phone without their permission, and you find yourself unable to pay for the bill. Eliminating cash also eliminates the possibility of having transactions that are difficult to trace for whatever reason, at least in small amounts. What if something you take for granted today becomes illegal (weed, abortion, anything you may think of) and the government will now have near total ability to see what you bought. It's a bleak future without privacy.

mettamage 3y ago
> Until the day your phone breaks for some reason I happen to have a second Apple device on me at all times: my watch. Risk of this happening is low. Still a risk though.
altacc 3y ago
The "phone breaks" argument is weak as plenty of wallets are lost and sometimes even attached to phone and then both are lost. The strong argument is that things don't even have to be illegal to become impossible to pay for using digital currency. Look at the adult industry, where it is nearing impossibility to find a merchant to support payments for legal adult services. Better laws & privacy protections will help but won't ever fully solve the problem. (And before anyone else jumps in, neither do cryptocurrencies in their current state.)
- alwayslikethis 3y ago
  Cryptocurrencies, especially the stronger privacy protecting ones like Monero mitigates tracking to a great extent and is permissionless, requiring no authorization from a third party to use your money. Though by doing so it also attracts criminal and law enforcement attention and is likely to be banned upon widespread adoption.
  - altacc 3y ago
    No cryptocurrency in its current or foreseeable future state are useful as daily methods of payment, for many reasons. Cryptocurrencies are volatile speculation instruments, not a practical currency as they lack the necessary combination of stable value, widespread adoption and either usefulness outside of limited markets or privacy friendly method to convert. Monero might not be as routinely traceable as other cryptocurrencies but any conversion to or from fiat is likely to be traceable or dodgy enough to get a bad rate of return. To be a truly useful currency someone has to be able to earn it one day and spend it freely in the overwhelming majority of commerce situations a week or month later for the equivalent value. That is not going to happen with cryptocurrency in the foreseeable future. The majority of people who claim it will be or should be are typically those most interested in cryptocurrency being a volatile speculation instrument, which defeats their stated goal.

feygeubdjvf 3y ago

that makes it even funnier if you know how the rest of the world operates. for the past decade most countries (china, india, brazil, eu, etc) have central bank issued APIs for instant payments. without being a client of visa, apple, etc... anyone can instantly transter money around. some banks require an app, others allow via sms, etc. the US seems like it is stuck in time, still swiping credit cards, and only having a glimpse of the world via toys their kids play with, until they are old enough to go back to the american way and start swiping cards.

kitsunesoba 3y ago

Mid-30s here and the only cards I carry are my ID and a couple of "catchall" credit cards to serve as a fallback where Apple Pay doesn't work, and unless I know I'm going to a cash-only bar or something I don't carry cash. Debit cards are practically never in my wallet unless I'm going out to withdraw cash. Way too risky to be carrying around a direct line to my primary bank account.