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This is so correct it's absolutely ridiculous. I learn new skills as a hobby. I have a degree in construction. There is no way for me to learn to be an electric

This is so correct it's absolutely ridiculous. I learn new skills as a hobby. I have a degree in construction. There is no way for me to learn to be an electrician that is authorized to do anything unless I drop everything else I'm doing for a minimum of 4 years. This is clearly ridiculous. Electricity isn't hard. This is precisely the sort of thing that standardized tests, both knowledge and practical, can effectively fix. No one wants to fix it though.

VWWHFSfQ 3y ago
> Electricity isn't hard. Famous last words. Maybe the real issue is that it's treated as a "trade", ie, something you can get accredited with in 2 years of vocational school or community college. But as we know from all the actual regulations about it, the reality is much different.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  Residential/Household electricity isn't hard. Learning everything you need to know and putting in the time to get licensed as an electrician is. And for good reason, there are plenty of fools who would try to call themselves electricians otherwise (as there are many fools who try to call themselves software developers but make more of a mess than anything else). Learning how to do your own household wiring as a homeowner is not hard.
  - meetingthrower 3y ago
    Exactly. Running basics circuits is very straightforward. Why don't we just tier the licenses from super easy on up? Run 110, license A; run 220, license B; install main service from the street, license test C; running three way switch, badge 1. That way you can then get a handyman to do a light fixture change without him breaking the law.
  - quickthrowman 3y ago
    Wiring houses is maybe 5-10% of electrical work, the rest is commercial and industrial.
    - denimnerd42 3y ago
      yeah and all the illegal work is being done in residential because of onerous regulations..
  - tastyfreeze 3y ago
    It also isn't hard to find an electrician that will come sign off on self done home wiring work to satisfy the regulators. To me that is a sign of overregulation. Electricians concede that non-electricians are capable enough to do their own work but the law requires somebody with a license to sign off on it.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      It is not about being capable enough to do the work, it is about having enough reputation and liability insurance to be liable for damages resulting from faulty work. The city government most certainly does not want to shoulder most of it via their inspectors, so they share it with “licensed” electricians who have to put their assets, or the insurance company’s assets, on the line.
      - tastyfreeze 3y ago
        If my house burns down because I did some bad wiring that is all on me.
        lotsofpulp 3y ago
        Sure, but what if you sell or rent the house and the next occupant suffers the consequences?
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  Residential is easy. Memorizing the code is the hardest part, and as a DIYer you can just go look that up as necessary to make sure you've got the right pieces.
  - themaninthedark 3y ago
    I wish, right now the residential code in my state is owned by a private company so there is not a free copy that is easily available.
briffle 3y ago
Of course they don't want to fix it. Those barriers help drive up the value of the people that control those barriers. In my state, its also a huge problem with Nursing and Police Certification. Especially over the last 3 years. If you hire a police officer in Oregon today, you will wait at least 9 months until they can start at the state run academy. And they might not graduate. So you have to pay them for 9 months to 'study' and not be police, and hope they graduate. Most deparments here put their recruiting efforts into getting licensed officers from other departments, with a huge bonus. (and of course, massive overtime for existing officers, and complaining about the shortages, turnover, etc) As the average age of Nurses, Police, etc over the years crept up, there was no movement to increase the capacity of training replacements, as the senior people liked the wages they got.
- petsfed 3y ago
  Given some of the controversies around poorly trained police, I'm not sure the problem here is that it takes too long to become a police officer. Rather, there aren't enough people trying to become officers, so the normal latency exacerbates issues surrounding the existing officer shortage. The absence of good candidates also drives down the quality of the average candidate, and has downstream affects as you mentioned. Maybe, like with the other trades, something should be done to make the job more appealing, so more people try to enter the pipeline.
- nradov 3y ago
  How is that a problem? Policing is a hard, complex job. Even 9 months of training isn't nearly enough. Law enforcement officers ought to have a minimum of two years of full time training before being sworn in and sent out on patrol with arrest powers. Many of the problems we see with police brutality and poor community relations come down to lack of proper training. This is a issue for small police departments which can't afford to pay a non-productive trainee for years. Realistically some of them aren't going to be viable going forward and will either have to merge with departments in neighboring cities, or dissolve and rely on a county sheriff's department.
- themaninthedark 3y ago
  I like how we just spent a couple years talking about how the police are are dumb and uneducated and now we are saying that 9 months of education is too long.
happytoexplain 3y ago
>Electricity isn't hard. I agree that we absolutely need to make regulation here more efficient, but I think this attitude is not effective. Electricity is hard, and getting it wrong ruins lives. It's OK to say that something is both hard but also perfectly learnable by most people. They aren't mutually exclusive. As soon as we learn something, we tend to say "it's not hard, really" to people starting that same journey. I think a lot of people unjustly reserve the word "hard" for only the highest degrees of complexity. But it's a useful word - we don't want to discourage anybody, but we also want to maintain a healthy respect for how much work you need to do to properly learn some things.
- robcohen 3y ago
  I reserve “hard” for skills/knowledge that a person who is average can succeed doing/knowing with significant motivation. Very few things are actually hard in the sense that it requires intelligence or motivation way beyond that. Iron man races are hard. Getting a CFA is hard. Becoming a software architect is hard. Electricity is simply not hard. Anyone can learn it. We should democratize these skills so we’re all more capable people.
- citrin_ru 3y ago
  Both theory and practice IMHO can be learned by motivated person in a year, but to get even a journeyman license one needs to work 4 years (may vary by state) as an apprentice being paid pennies and not necessary receiving all necessary knowledge.
  - citrin_ru 3y ago
    A requirement to work 4 years being paid very little before you can get license and be paid for the work strongly reminds me servitude. If it was only about knowledge it should have been possible to demonstrate it by passing a hard exam, but one not allowed to take an exam until servitude if paid off.
    - claytongulick 3y ago
      And how much do you get paid while going to college for those four years?
jadbox 3y ago
Why does no one wants to fix it? Clearly there's a lot of demand for more electricians.
- denimnerd42 3y ago
  because the people in charge are the ones profiting and they have regulatory capture.
  - lapetitejort 3y ago
    Who are the people in charge? How do they make money off this? Which industry has captured the regulators?
    - denimnerd42 3y ago
      The advisory boards, lobbyists, industry insiders that advise the regulatory agencies are all vested in keeping the apprentice, journeyman, master licensing scheme going as it gate keeps entry into the field. If someone proposed that it should be a skills based test with oral, practical, written portions where you simply had to prove your knowledge instead of spend years and hours in the trade then they would come up with tons of reasons around safety, etc that it would be a bad idea just so they could retain their titles and keep more people out of the field. Similar to any regulated field like Doctors that have a vested interest in keeping residency spots competitive.
    - chasd00 3y ago
      No one wants to say the unions but the answer is the unions. Unions reward seniority and not much else. You have to pay your dues!
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Panzer04 3y ago
Yep, absolutely. I’m an EE, and was interested in doing my own electrical work - there’s no recognition of prior learning, as far as I can tell. In Australia you must have completed a 4 year apprenticeship. No ifs, buts, it maybes. For reference, it’s not uncommon for contractors to send out apprentices with a year or two of experience to do jobs solo (it’s illegal, but that never stopped anybody). I appreciate the need for experienced workers to do jobs to a high standard, but it seems clear to me the currents regulations are too onerous. It’s not surprising a there’s a shortage, when the apprenticeship pays like shit, the actual job is not paid especially well, and the work sucks. The only people who make money are the contractors with a team under them.
- farkanoid 3y ago
  Ditto here. Working with mains voltages and cabling every day for over 20 years. I know the IEC specs forwards backwards, but I'm 40, married and can't afford to leave my EE day job for a 4 year apprenticeship that pays nothing. Apparently you can pay ~$12K to an RTO (the 'pay to get qualified' type) and get it done in a year, but you still require a sparkie to sign off, as well as photo/video evidence along with written and practical tests. I feel like Electrical/HVAC are among the most gate-kept trades in Australia.
  - XorNot 3y ago
    It's probably about a tie with plumbing. The reality is the whole country does a weird cold-war type arrangement where no one asks too many questions at Bunnings. Which is absurd because of course it's essentially the worst possible outcome: people either can't afford necessary work and so never do it, or figure it out and get it done to varying levels of quality which they then never talk about or show anyone because there's no way to get stuff approved. It's wild to me that you have American DIY channels where people want to put a new circuit into their switch panel box, and just call up the local code office to check what they need to show to get it signed off - then go and do that (also, American switch panel boxes look like such a better system then what we do in residential Australia).
  - Panzer04 3y ago
dsfyu404ed 3y ago
>No one wants to fix it though. Worse than that. You have to tiptoe around any criticism of it or "the usual type of people" will come out of the woodwork to make low effort quips about safety, house fires and whatnot because regulatory requirements in and of themselves are a virtuous thing to many and it doesn't matter if they're terribly implemented because they are holy.
Tangurena2 3y ago
> Electricity isn't hard. I don't know. To me it isn't. I'm now a software developer and I don't find it hard. Back when I was a car mechanic (and also electronic technician), part of Florida started requiring exams & licenses for people working on cars. The ASE exams were the basic entry-level requirements. We had people working for us who had 10+ years of experience installing car radios yet they were unable to pass the electrical ASE exam (A-6). I tried teaching these guys, but they still could not pass the test. Even after leaving that company, they used my certification & license to stay legal. After getting run over by a car, I don't bend too well in the middle. There's no way that I could be an electrician (or any other trade worker).

VWWHFSfQ 3y ago

> Electricity isn't hard. Famous last words. Maybe the real issue is that it's treated as a "trade", ie, something you can get accredited with in 2 years of vocational school or community college. But as we know from all the actual regulations about it, the reality is much different.

SoftTalker 3y ago
Residential/Household electricity isn't hard. Learning everything you need to know and putting in the time to get licensed as an electrician is. And for good reason, there are plenty of fools who would try to call themselves electricians otherwise (as there are many fools who try to call themselves software developers but make more of a mess than anything else). Learning how to do your own household wiring as a homeowner is not hard.
- meetingthrower 3y ago
  Exactly. Running basics circuits is very straightforward. Why don't we just tier the licenses from super easy on up? Run 110, license A; run 220, license B; install main service from the street, license test C; running three way switch, badge 1. That way you can then get a handyman to do a light fixture change without him breaking the law.
- quickthrowman 3y ago
  Wiring houses is maybe 5-10% of electrical work, the rest is commercial and industrial.
  - denimnerd42 3y ago
    yeah and all the illegal work is being done in residential because of onerous regulations..
- tastyfreeze 3y ago
  It also isn't hard to find an electrician that will come sign off on self done home wiring work to satisfy the regulators. To me that is a sign of overregulation. Electricians concede that non-electricians are capable enough to do their own work but the law requires somebody with a license to sign off on it.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    It is not about being capable enough to do the work, it is about having enough reputation and liability insurance to be liable for damages resulting from faulty work. The city government most certainly does not want to shoulder most of it via their inspectors, so they share it with “licensed” electricians who have to put their assets, or the insurance company’s assets, on the line.
    - tastyfreeze 3y ago
      If my house burns down because I did some bad wiring that is all on me.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        Sure, but what if you sell or rent the house and the next occupant suffers the consequences?
rootusrootus 3y ago
Residential is easy. Memorizing the code is the hardest part, and as a DIYer you can just go look that up as necessary to make sure you've got the right pieces.
- themaninthedark 3y ago
  I wish, right now the residential code in my state is owned by a private company so there is not a free copy that is easily available.

briffle 3y ago

Of course they don't want to fix it. Those barriers help drive up the value of the people that control those barriers. In my state, its also a huge problem with Nursing and Police Certification. Especially over the last 3 years. If you hire a police officer in Oregon today, you will wait at least 9 months until they can start at the state run academy. And they might not graduate. So you have to pay them for 9 months to 'study' and not be police, and hope they graduate. Most deparments here put their recruiting efforts into getting licensed officers from other departments, with a huge bonus. (and of course, massive overtime for existing officers, and complaining about the shortages, turnover, etc) As the average age of Nurses, Police, etc over the years crept up, there was no movement to increase the capacity of training replacements, as the senior people liked the wages they got.

petsfed 3y ago
Given some of the controversies around poorly trained police, I'm not sure the problem here is that it takes too long to become a police officer. Rather, there aren't enough people trying to become officers, so the normal latency exacerbates issues surrounding the existing officer shortage. The absence of good candidates also drives down the quality of the average candidate, and has downstream affects as you mentioned. Maybe, like with the other trades, something should be done to make the job more appealing, so more people try to enter the pipeline.
nradov 3y ago
How is that a problem? Policing is a hard, complex job. Even 9 months of training isn't nearly enough. Law enforcement officers ought to have a minimum of two years of full time training before being sworn in and sent out on patrol with arrest powers. Many of the problems we see with police brutality and poor community relations come down to lack of proper training. This is a issue for small police departments which can't afford to pay a non-productive trainee for years. Realistically some of them aren't going to be viable going forward and will either have to merge with departments in neighboring cities, or dissolve and rely on a county sheriff's department.
themaninthedark 3y ago
I like how we just spent a couple years talking about how the police are are dumb and uneducated and now we are saying that 9 months of education is too long.

happytoexplain 3y ago

>Electricity isn't hard. I agree that we absolutely need to make regulation here more efficient, but I think this attitude is not effective. Electricity is hard, and getting it wrong ruins lives. It's OK to say that something is both hard but also perfectly learnable by most people. They aren't mutually exclusive. As soon as we learn something, we tend to say "it's not hard, really" to people starting that same journey. I think a lot of people unjustly reserve the word "hard" for only the highest degrees of complexity. But it's a useful word - we don't want to discourage anybody, but we also want to maintain a healthy respect for how much work you need to do to properly learn some things.

robcohen 3y ago
I reserve “hard” for skills/knowledge that a person who is average can succeed doing/knowing with significant motivation. Very few things are actually hard in the sense that it requires intelligence or motivation way beyond that. Iron man races are hard. Getting a CFA is hard. Becoming a software architect is hard. Electricity is simply not hard. Anyone can learn it. We should democratize these skills so we’re all more capable people.
citrin_ru 3y ago
Both theory and practice IMHO can be learned by motivated person in a year, but to get even a journeyman license one needs to work 4 years (may vary by state) as an apprentice being paid pennies and not necessary receiving all necessary knowledge.
- citrin_ru 3y ago
  A requirement to work 4 years being paid very little before you can get license and be paid for the work strongly reminds me servitude. If it was only about knowledge it should have been possible to demonstrate it by passing a hard exam, but one not allowed to take an exam until servitude if paid off.
  - claytongulick 3y ago
    And how much do you get paid while going to college for those four years?

jadbox 3y ago

Why does no one wants to fix it? Clearly there's a lot of demand for more electricians.

denimnerd42 3y ago
because the people in charge are the ones profiting and they have regulatory capture.
- lapetitejort 3y ago
  Who are the people in charge? How do they make money off this? Which industry has captured the regulators?
  - denimnerd42 3y ago
    The advisory boards, lobbyists, industry insiders that advise the regulatory agencies are all vested in keeping the apprentice, journeyman, master licensing scheme going as it gate keeps entry into the field. If someone proposed that it should be a skills based test with oral, practical, written portions where you simply had to prove your knowledge instead of spend years and hours in the trade then they would come up with tons of reasons around safety, etc that it would be a bad idea just so they could retain their titles and keep more people out of the field. Similar to any regulated field like Doctors that have a vested interest in keeping residency spots competitive.
  - chasd00 3y ago
    No one wants to say the unions but the answer is the unions. Unions reward seniority and not much else. You have to pay your dues!

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Panzer04 3y ago

Yep, absolutely. I’m an EE, and was interested in doing my own electrical work - there’s no recognition of prior learning, as far as I can tell. In Australia you must have completed a 4 year apprenticeship. No ifs, buts, it maybes. For reference, it’s not uncommon for contractors to send out apprentices with a year or two of experience to do jobs solo (it’s illegal, but that never stopped anybody). I appreciate the need for experienced workers to do jobs to a high standard, but it seems clear to me the currents regulations are too onerous. It’s not surprising a there’s a shortage, when the apprenticeship pays like shit, the actual job is not paid especially well, and the work sucks. The only people who make money are the contractors with a team under them.

farkanoid 3y ago
Ditto here. Working with mains voltages and cabling every day for over 20 years. I know the IEC specs forwards backwards, but I'm 40, married and can't afford to leave my EE day job for a 4 year apprenticeship that pays nothing. Apparently you can pay ~$12K to an RTO (the 'pay to get qualified' type) and get it done in a year, but you still require a sparkie to sign off, as well as photo/video evidence along with written and practical tests. I feel like Electrical/HVAC are among the most gate-kept trades in Australia.
- XorNot 3y ago
  It's probably about a tie with plumbing. The reality is the whole country does a weird cold-war type arrangement where no one asks too many questions at Bunnings. Which is absurd because of course it's essentially the worst possible outcome: people either can't afford necessary work and so never do it, or figure it out and get it done to varying levels of quality which they then never talk about or show anyone because there's no way to get stuff approved. It's wild to me that you have American DIY channels where people want to put a new circuit into their switch panel box, and just call up the local code office to check what they need to show to get it signed off - then go and do that (also, American switch panel boxes look like such a better system then what we do in residential Australia).
- Panzer04 3y ago

dsfyu404ed 3y ago

>No one wants to fix it though. Worse than that. You have to tiptoe around any criticism of it or "the usual type of people" will come out of the woodwork to make low effort quips about safety, house fires and whatnot because regulatory requirements in and of themselves are a virtuous thing to many and it doesn't matter if they're terribly implemented because they are holy.

Tangurena2 3y ago

> Electricity isn't hard. I don't know. To me it isn't. I'm now a software developer and I don't find it hard. Back when I was a car mechanic (and also electronic technician), part of Florida started requiring exams & licenses for people working on cars. The ASE exams were the basic entry-level requirements. We had people working for us who had 10+ years of experience installing car radios yet they were unable to pass the electrical ASE exam (A-6). I tried teaching these guys, but they still could not pass the test. Even after leaving that company, they used my certification & license to stay legal. After getting run over by a car, I don't bend too well in the middle. There's no way that I could be an electrician (or any other trade worker).