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> it's not possible for human beings to write correct C code, measured over time I don't disagree [1], but remember that Rust can be unsafe too. Async is not a

> it's not possible for human beings to write correct C code, measured over time I don't disagree [1], but remember that Rust can be unsafe too. Async is not a panacea, and it's confusing. And the `unsafe` escape hatch is still unsafe. > you have a professional obligation to use a higher-level language, with stronger guarantees Oh? So we have professional obligations now? For FOSS? News to me. I don't get paid for my work. Not yet. So I have no obligation. And when I do get paid, my code will be in my own safe language. This accusatory response is exactly the kind of thing that puts a lot of people off Rust. > factually, you do not. nobody does. When I say "write C at a high level," I don't mean that I'm perfect. I mean that I write excellent C compared to all C programmers out there. Engineering is not about perfection; it never was. It's about doing the best we can with the tools that we have. [1]: https://git.gavinhoward.com/gavin/bc/src/branch/master/MEMORY_BUGS.md https://git.gavinhoward.com/gavin/bc/src/branch/master/MEMOR...

tourist2d 4y ago
Ask any experienced C developer and they'd all say "I write excellent C compared to all C programmers out there."
- gavinhoward 4y ago
  That is true. I'm repeating what others have judged and told me. Of course, feel free to judge for yourself.
- amoss 4y ago
  This could be true if you consider survivor bias.
- camgunz 4y ago
  I'm an experienced C developer and I wouldn't say this. I'm pretty meticulous, I use as much tooling as I can, and I've still written over/underflows, memory corruption, threading heisenbugs, double frees, NULL derefs, etc. etc. etc. My defect rate has gone way down over the years, but that's probably 50/50 experience vs. an attenuation of my ambitions. I think the proof is in the pudding here. I can't imagine using a messaging client or an email client written in C, and also there isn't much that is written in C anymore even if I wanted to: you're looking at Swift/Java/Kotlin/TypeScript/JavaScript/C#/Vala/Dart/Rust/Go, and maybe C++. Is anyone writing production servers in C these days? It feels like they're 100% Go and Rust. There are notable exceptions, in particular I'm thinking about OpenBSD. I think OS dev is a pretty niche area though, especially when you're talking about OpenBSD's wide platform support, so I think it's more the exception that proves the rule than anything.

tourist2d 4y ago

Ask any experienced C developer and they'd all say "I write excellent C compared to all C programmers out there."

gavinhoward 4y ago
That is true. I'm repeating what others have judged and told me. Of course, feel free to judge for yourself.
amoss 4y ago
This could be true if you consider survivor bias.
camgunz 4y ago
I'm an experienced C developer and I wouldn't say this. I'm pretty meticulous, I use as much tooling as I can, and I've still written over/underflows, memory corruption, threading heisenbugs, double frees, NULL derefs, etc. etc. etc. My defect rate has gone way down over the years, but that's probably 50/50 experience vs. an attenuation of my ambitions. I think the proof is in the pudding here. I can't imagine using a messaging client or an email client written in C, and also there isn't much that is written in C anymore even if I wanted to: you're looking at Swift/Java/Kotlin/TypeScript/JavaScript/C#/Vala/Dart/Rust/Go, and maybe C++. Is anyone writing production servers in C these days? It feels like they're 100% Go and Rust. There are notable exceptions, in particular I'm thinking about OpenBSD. I think OS dev is a pretty niche area though, especially when you're talking about OpenBSD's wide platform support, so I think it's more the exception that proves the rule than anything.