5 ms·

Yea this article makes it sound like the loophole is the primary reason but I don’t think it’s even a significant contributor. Anyone can google the top 5 SUVs

by prng2021 4y ago

Yea this article makes it sound like the loophole is the primary reason but I don’t think it’s even a significant contributor. Anyone can google the top 5 SUVs sold in 2022. None of them are over the 6,000 pound gross weight limit to be counted as a track. All of them over grown significantly in physical size over the past decade. American family sizes have steadily dropped for many decades so the editor’s mention of millennials and family sizes contributing to demand for large vehicles is nonsensical. Americans just love big cars and that desire vastly trumps and concern over environmental impact.

euroderf 4y ago
And when gas prices go up, everyone gets all whiny and acts all oppressed.
- prepend 4y ago
  High gas prices are regressive and are a little oppressive. So they function like a tax, most impacting the poor. Makes sense to while about it. And is an oppression, while definitely not the worst.
  - euroderf 4y ago
    I'd like to see the US jack up gas taxes, and then at the end of the year, refund most of it as an equal amount per adult. That would create some serious incentives to cut down on driving or even give up cars entirely, while not becoming a cash cow for the feds.
    - replygirl 4y ago
      This is clever gamification but probably most of the players would be the suburban and rural poor, for whom excess driving is more likely to be non-discretionary and the only option for local + regional travel. The effect would be to limit their quality of life, either by deferring access to money for basic expenses, by limiting access to employment, or by discouraging children's access to recreation and socialization opportunities. There are similar arguments against VMT taxes How about we tax cars as property, based on Blue Book value and modulated by income bracket, and maybe even by specs like weight and fuel economy? Some states are already doing at least a basic version of this. And instead of giving the money back, we can fund fare-free municipal bus and rideshare programs
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        >for whom excess driving is more likely to be non-discretionary That's the point. It is a luxury to live on a 10k sq ft lot in a 3k+ sq ft house. Moving mass far distances requires lots of energy.
      - euroderf 4y ago
        It's helpful to bear in mind that living out in the boonies is a choice, and that people who choose to live in built-up areas (at additional expense) are under no obligation to subsidise the formers' lifestyle. In all scenarios, taxes decrease consumption. Kids can use bikes to get around, families' second cars can be glorified golf carts. Enviro-winning. I agree about the desirability of free mass transit. To take a case in point, Tallinn (Estonia's capital) instituted it for residents (only), the idea being to get people to undo bogus out-of-city residences and return to the city's tax rolls. The last I read, it's working nicely.
        lucas_membrane 4y ago
        > In all scenarios, taxes decrease consumption. Not always. For example, an increase in the tax on a popular but very low-priced subsistence food can increase its consumption by reducing the amount of higher-priced alternatives that consumers can afford.
        euroderf 4y ago
        OK, I forgot to mention ceteris paribus. So you suggest, by analogy, that higher gas prices might reduce demand for electric vehicles by pre-emptively emptying drivers' wallets ?
        replygirl 4y ago
        > It's helpful to bear in mind that living out in the boonies is a choice It's usually an ancestor's choice and getting out is typically either prohibitively difficult or in conflict with family values Spoken by someone who got out
- geodel 4y ago
  Huh, about as whiny as people here get about internet bandwidth prices. or about apartment rents when any increase is a vast landlords conspiracy.
masklinn 4y ago
> Americans just love big cars and that desire vastly trumps and concern over environmental impact. Not like it’s just Americans either.
- ch_sm 4y ago
  Cars in the U.S. are still FAR bigger on average than anywhere I‘ve seen (in Europe or Asia).
  - masklinn 4y ago
    They are, but from what I’ve seen there are idiots getting US-style pickups in Europe these days. The stupidity threshold is just higher, because European countries are not designed for vehicles this long or wide so your want for the bloody things has to exceed the sheer inconvenience they are for you (I assume whoever buys these cares nothing for the inconvenience to others), and the money pit they are in fuel and maintenance (as they’re uncommon I’d also assume most garages can’t handle them).
- amrocha 4y ago
  In the richer neighborhoods of Tokyo you'll see quite a few land rovers and Teslas, which are probably the most inconvenient cars to have in Tokyo. At that point it's about showing off more than anything.
  - masklinn 4y ago
    Are teslas really the most inconvenient to have in Tokyo? They’re not small which definitely counts against them, and their weight may play against the stacking garages some folks have, but IIRC having a car in Tokyo requires justifying that you have an off-street parking spot so it seems well suited for EVs.
    - amrocha 4y ago
      It's mostly the size. I cycle a lot and Teslas are noticeably bigger/wider than most domestic vehicles, which means they don't fit in a lot of smaller side roads. There's more inconvenient vehicles out there, but those are the ones I see most frequently.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> I don’t think it’s even a significant contributor I know a surprisingly nontrivial number of people who needed an SUV, but upsized because of the tax deduction.
- prng2021 4y ago
  I know one person who did as well but these are tiny percentages of people that can’t possibly be affecting these macro trends. That tax deduction requires having a business. The general population only knows the bare minimum to file their personal taxes, not how to create a LLC to take advantage of tax breaks.

euroderf 4y ago

And when gas prices go up, everyone gets all whiny and acts all oppressed.

prepend 4y ago
High gas prices are regressive and are a little oppressive. So they function like a tax, most impacting the poor. Makes sense to while about it. And is an oppression, while definitely not the worst.
- euroderf 4y ago
  I'd like to see the US jack up gas taxes, and then at the end of the year, refund most of it as an equal amount per adult. That would create some serious incentives to cut down on driving or even give up cars entirely, while not becoming a cash cow for the feds.
  - replygirl 4y ago
    This is clever gamification but probably most of the players would be the suburban and rural poor, for whom excess driving is more likely to be non-discretionary and the only option for local + regional travel. The effect would be to limit their quality of life, either by deferring access to money for basic expenses, by limiting access to employment, or by discouraging children's access to recreation and socialization opportunities. There are similar arguments against VMT taxes How about we tax cars as property, based on Blue Book value and modulated by income bracket, and maybe even by specs like weight and fuel economy? Some states are already doing at least a basic version of this. And instead of giving the money back, we can fund fare-free municipal bus and rideshare programs
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      >for whom excess driving is more likely to be non-discretionary That's the point. It is a luxury to live on a 10k sq ft lot in a 3k+ sq ft house. Moving mass far distances requires lots of energy.
    - euroderf 4y ago
      It's helpful to bear in mind that living out in the boonies is a choice, and that people who choose to live in built-up areas (at additional expense) are under no obligation to subsidise the formers' lifestyle. In all scenarios, taxes decrease consumption. Kids can use bikes to get around, families' second cars can be glorified golf carts. Enviro-winning. I agree about the desirability of free mass transit. To take a case in point, Tallinn (Estonia's capital) instituted it for residents (only), the idea being to get people to undo bogus out-of-city residences and return to the city's tax rolls. The last I read, it's working nicely.
      - lucas_membrane 4y ago
        > In all scenarios, taxes decrease consumption. Not always. For example, an increase in the tax on a popular but very low-priced subsistence food can increase its consumption by reducing the amount of higher-priced alternatives that consumers can afford.
        euroderf 4y ago
        OK, I forgot to mention ceteris paribus. So you suggest, by analogy, that higher gas prices might reduce demand for electric vehicles by pre-emptively emptying drivers' wallets ?
      - replygirl 4y ago
        > It's helpful to bear in mind that living out in the boonies is a choice It's usually an ancestor's choice and getting out is typically either prohibitively difficult or in conflict with family values Spoken by someone who got out
geodel 4y ago
Huh, about as whiny as people here get about internet bandwidth prices. or about apartment rents when any increase is a vast landlords conspiracy.

masklinn 4y ago

> Americans just love big cars and that desire vastly trumps and concern over environmental impact. Not like it’s just Americans either.

ch_sm 4y ago
Cars in the U.S. are still FAR bigger on average than anywhere I‘ve seen (in Europe or Asia).
- masklinn 4y ago
  They are, but from what I’ve seen there are idiots getting US-style pickups in Europe these days. The stupidity threshold is just higher, because European countries are not designed for vehicles this long or wide so your want for the bloody things has to exceed the sheer inconvenience they are for you (I assume whoever buys these cares nothing for the inconvenience to others), and the money pit they are in fuel and maintenance (as they’re uncommon I’d also assume most garages can’t handle them).
amrocha 4y ago
In the richer neighborhoods of Tokyo you'll see quite a few land rovers and Teslas, which are probably the most inconvenient cars to have in Tokyo. At that point it's about showing off more than anything.
- masklinn 4y ago
  Are teslas really the most inconvenient to have in Tokyo? They’re not small which definitely counts against them, and their weight may play against the stacking garages some folks have, but IIRC having a car in Tokyo requires justifying that you have an off-street parking spot so it seems well suited for EVs.
  - amrocha 4y ago
    It's mostly the size. I cycle a lot and Teslas are noticeably bigger/wider than most domestic vehicles, which means they don't fit in a lot of smaller side roads. There's more inconvenient vehicles out there, but those are the ones I see most frequently.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> I don’t think it’s even a significant contributor I know a surprisingly nontrivial number of people who needed an SUV, but upsized because of the tax deduction.

prng2021 4y ago
I know one person who did as well but these are tiny percentages of people that can’t possibly be affecting these macro trends. That tax deduction requires having a business. The general population only knows the bare minimum to file their personal taxes, not how to create a LLC to take advantage of tax breaks.