6 ms·

I think that there are plenty of positive masculine people to look up to, but they’re not as well regarded likely because pro-masculine, anti-misogyny positions

I think that there are plenty of positive masculine people to look up to, but they’re not as well regarded likely because pro-masculine, anti-misogyny positions don’t go viral. Look at healthygamer, a twitch streamer who is a man, a gamer psychiatrist man, and literally all he does is primarily address men’s issues of loneliness, struggling to find a gf, making friends, etc. F D Signifier is a black man who is fat, has two kids and is happily married, and talks a lot about masculinity and specifically how to be a black man, even talking about how black men are hypersexualized to the point where they’re expected to welcome sexual harassment. I like Folding Ideas, he just does YouTube about things and I think that’s neat, also a cis guy. Edited to add: healthygamer literally has a discord room with a channel just about taking photos of walking outside to prove you went and touched grass as an initiative to have an entire community cheer about people going outside. So it’s not just like one dude streaming, he’s actively community building to have healthy male mutual support networks.

ameminator 3y ago
I don't know if any of the people you mentioned should be considered good male role models. I think we should aspire to having exemplars who are more than simply heterosexual or a man, but who positively advocate for leading a purposeful life. "Look, here is a married fat person or a psychologist/gamer" doesn't quite cut it in my books, especially when then entire psychiatric profession labelled 'masculinity as a whole' as a _mental illness_. The sad fact is that society as a whole idolizes celebrity and does not celebrate moral ways of living. People who do advocate for moral ways of living are either a) demonized or b) considered "fringe" groups, like the Mennonites. Sure, various organized religions or even community organizations (like the Scouts) have had their scandals - but maybe we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater a little bit. There are many signs that our society is sick and that our culture is in the decline (falling marriage and birth rates, suicide, decline in life expectancy, decline in children's IQ etc...) and there just isn't an easy answer. Now, this is all separate and aside from men's issues, which are absolutely taboo to discuss. Anyone who even attempts to do so gets demonized. Jordan Peterson is a good example - his original message of how to live a responsible life and to own your 'destiny' can be very helpful, especially for men. Sure he is considered "cringe" and his online rants have become more and more unhinged. However, I consider this a _reaction_ to being demonized - originally, Peterson was very articulate, and there were many, many testimonials about how his books improved people's lives for the better. His story actually serves to discourage people who would otherwise speak up and improve the lives of people around them - here is someone whose message improved many lives and look what he became after years of constant vitriol and attacks.
- SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
  > especially when then entire psychiatric profession labelled 'masculinity as a whole' as a _mental illness_ Wait, what? Where is masculinity in the DSM or ICD? I’m pretty sure being a guy isn’t a mental illness dude. > I think we should aspire to having exemplars who are more than simply heterosexual or a man, but who positively advocate for leading a purposeful life I think a guy who is dedicating his career on teaching men to celebrate going outside and making dude friends, the very small steps out of isolation and depression, on the platform where they are most likely to waste their lives in (twitch gamer streams) is precisely this kind of guy. He is actively building his life on encouraging other men to live positive, happy, fulfilling lives, one step at a time. > Jordan Peterson is a good example - his original message of how to live a responsible life and to own your 'destiny' can be very helpful, especially for men. Jordan Peterson says he advocates for men but also he advocated for a bunch of bs that had nothing to do with living a healthy life, like rah rah against pronouns. Dude pronouns have nothing to do with you as a man. Get over it.
  - ameminator 3y ago
    ASA labels masculinity harmful: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/01/10/american-psychological-association-traditional-masculinity-harmful/2538520002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/01/1... In regards to your specific examples, I'm very happy you personally derived value from this influencer/streamer's videos, but I kind of see that as part of the problem - a good male role model shouldn't just be a twitch streamer. Sure, if his content is helping people, promote it (I personally didn't see the value from what little content of theirs that I have watched, but you do you), but maybe your idea of a good role model is different than mine. In regards to Jordan Peterson, he's just a specific example - but he was (I don't think he is anymore) very influential in this debate for a period of time and I just didn't think the conversation would be complete without bringing him up. What you wrote in your last paragraph is common: "He didn't want to use pronouns, therefore I will dismiss anything and everything he ever wrote/said". (Nevermind that the whole issue was the Canadian government forcing its professors to conform to a specific ideology if they wanted to keep their jobs - in Canada, almost all education is government-run).
orwin 3y ago
I think having a psychanalyst, fan of Jung and subscribing his 'theories' as a role model, however articulate he is, should be as lauded as having a 'homeopath' as a doctor. I'm sorry, I know there is a lot of French and Canadians here, but let's get real, psychanalysts are expensive and barely usefull (you get to talk to someone), and make money on loneliness and isolation. Buy an escort instead, it's more useful imho.
- SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
  Okay, how about the guy who started building houses for vets? Or just whatever local guy who is doing good in your neighborhood? I know a guy who does bbq for charity. That guys great. 10/10 masculine role model.
  - orwin 3y ago
    Sorry, i really don't care that much about US culture war, you can have role models you want as long as they're not crooks. I hated that JP brought Psychanalysis to the US (who have real psychologists, unlike in my country) way before he became a culture war hero/vilain. The number of years psychoanalysts destroy is quite high. In my mother's case, 30, and 4 different psychoanalysts . She changed to a behavioral psychologist with my insistance, the psychologist told her after 20 minutes "I think you are bipolar madam, you can alleviate your symptoms by doing X regularly and being careful of Y, but you should go to a psychiatrist". She got to a hospital, go some lithium, and is finally easy to live with (to bad her relationship with my sister is already destroyed). 40 to 60 euros every two weeks for almost 30 year vs 60 euros once. Psychoanalysts are crooks. ==== My role models are my grandfathers and my father (and one of my uncles, kinda), so i don't need any celebrity, local or global. The advantage of having a mostly good family.
    - CapstanRoller 3y ago
      >I hated that JP brought Psychanalysis to the US (who have real psychologists, unlike in my country) >Psychoanalysts are crooks. In the USA, there are two specializations in the field of primary mental health care: psychologists (people who talk to you) and psychiatrists (people who prescribe psychotropic medication). The former is a highly-trained counselor who can debug thought processes or situations (software), the latter is a medical doctor who can debug physiological issues within the brain (hardware). Both are critically important to holistic mental health care and maintenance.
thefz 3y ago
> Edited to add: healthygamer literally has a discord room with a channel just about taking photos of walking outside to prove you went and touched grass as an initiative to have an entire community cheer about people going outside Man, anyone that needs an influencer type to tell them to leave the house is in a bad, bad situation in life.
- SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
  Yeah, the whole point is to give the smallest possible steps to get people out of the darkest situations and towards self actualization. Watching his streams makes me realize just how bad some dudes got it.

ameminator 3y ago

I don't know if any of the people you mentioned should be considered good male role models. I think we should aspire to having exemplars who are more than simply heterosexual or a man, but who positively advocate for leading a purposeful life. "Look, here is a married fat person or a psychologist/gamer" doesn't quite cut it in my books, especially when then entire psychiatric profession labelled 'masculinity as a whole' as a _mental illness_. The sad fact is that society as a whole idolizes celebrity and does not celebrate moral ways of living. People who do advocate for moral ways of living are either a) demonized or b) considered "fringe" groups, like the Mennonites. Sure, various organized religions or even community organizations (like the Scouts) have had their scandals - but maybe we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater a little bit. There are many signs that our society is sick and that our culture is in the decline (falling marriage and birth rates, suicide, decline in life expectancy, decline in children's IQ etc...) and there just isn't an easy answer. Now, this is all separate and aside from men's issues, which are absolutely taboo to discuss. Anyone who even attempts to do so gets demonized. Jordan Peterson is a good example - his original message of how to live a responsible life and to own your 'destiny' can be very helpful, especially for men. Sure he is considered "cringe" and his online rants have become more and more unhinged. However, I consider this a _reaction_ to being demonized - originally, Peterson was very articulate, and there were many, many testimonials about how his books improved people's lives for the better. His story actually serves to discourage people who would otherwise speak up and improve the lives of people around them - here is someone whose message improved many lives and look what he became after years of constant vitriol and attacks.

SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
> especially when then entire psychiatric profession labelled 'masculinity as a whole' as a _mental illness_ Wait, what? Where is masculinity in the DSM or ICD? I’m pretty sure being a guy isn’t a mental illness dude. > I think we should aspire to having exemplars who are more than simply heterosexual or a man, but who positively advocate for leading a purposeful life I think a guy who is dedicating his career on teaching men to celebrate going outside and making dude friends, the very small steps out of isolation and depression, on the platform where they are most likely to waste their lives in (twitch gamer streams) is precisely this kind of guy. He is actively building his life on encouraging other men to live positive, happy, fulfilling lives, one step at a time. > Jordan Peterson is a good example - his original message of how to live a responsible life and to own your 'destiny' can be very helpful, especially for men. Jordan Peterson says he advocates for men but also he advocated for a bunch of bs that had nothing to do with living a healthy life, like rah rah against pronouns. Dude pronouns have nothing to do with you as a man. Get over it.
- ameminator 3y ago
  ASA labels masculinity harmful: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/01/10/american-psychological-association-traditional-masculinity-harmful/2538520002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/01/1... In regards to your specific examples, I'm very happy you personally derived value from this influencer/streamer's videos, but I kind of see that as part of the problem - a good male role model shouldn't just be a twitch streamer. Sure, if his content is helping people, promote it (I personally didn't see the value from what little content of theirs that I have watched, but you do you), but maybe your idea of a good role model is different than mine. In regards to Jordan Peterson, he's just a specific example - but he was (I don't think he is anymore) very influential in this debate for a period of time and I just didn't think the conversation would be complete without bringing him up. What you wrote in your last paragraph is common: "He didn't want to use pronouns, therefore I will dismiss anything and everything he ever wrote/said". (Nevermind that the whole issue was the Canadian government forcing its professors to conform to a specific ideology if they wanted to keep their jobs - in Canada, almost all education is government-run).

orwin 3y ago

I think having a psychanalyst, fan of Jung and subscribing his 'theories' as a role model, however articulate he is, should be as lauded as having a 'homeopath' as a doctor. I'm sorry, I know there is a lot of French and Canadians here, but let's get real, psychanalysts are expensive and barely usefull (you get to talk to someone), and make money on loneliness and isolation. Buy an escort instead, it's more useful imho.

SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
Okay, how about the guy who started building houses for vets? Or just whatever local guy who is doing good in your neighborhood? I know a guy who does bbq for charity. That guys great. 10/10 masculine role model.
- orwin 3y ago
  Sorry, i really don't care that much about US culture war, you can have role models you want as long as they're not crooks. I hated that JP brought Psychanalysis to the US (who have real psychologists, unlike in my country) way before he became a culture war hero/vilain. The number of years psychoanalysts destroy is quite high. In my mother's case, 30, and 4 different psychoanalysts . She changed to a behavioral psychologist with my insistance, the psychologist told her after 20 minutes "I think you are bipolar madam, you can alleviate your symptoms by doing X regularly and being careful of Y, but you should go to a psychiatrist". She got to a hospital, go some lithium, and is finally easy to live with (to bad her relationship with my sister is already destroyed). 40 to 60 euros every two weeks for almost 30 year vs 60 euros once. Psychoanalysts are crooks. ==== My role models are my grandfathers and my father (and one of my uncles, kinda), so i don't need any celebrity, local or global. The advantage of having a mostly good family.
  - CapstanRoller 3y ago
    >I hated that JP brought Psychanalysis to the US (who have real psychologists, unlike in my country) >Psychoanalysts are crooks. In the USA, there are two specializations in the field of primary mental health care: psychologists (people who talk to you) and psychiatrists (people who prescribe psychotropic medication). The former is a highly-trained counselor who can debug thought processes or situations (software), the latter is a medical doctor who can debug physiological issues within the brain (hardware). Both are critically important to holistic mental health care and maintenance.

thefz 3y ago

> Edited to add: healthygamer literally has a discord room with a channel just about taking photos of walking outside to prove you went and touched grass as an initiative to have an entire community cheer about people going outside Man, anyone that needs an influencer type to tell them to leave the house is in a bad, bad situation in life.

SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
Yeah, the whole point is to give the smallest possible steps to get people out of the darkest situations and towards self actualization. Watching his streams makes me realize just how bad some dudes got it.