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We're not going to make much progress here as long as being interested or active in men's issues is equated to being an oppressor class torch-carrying Capitol-s

We're not going to make much progress here as long as being interested or active in men's issues is equated to being an oppressor class torch-carrying Capitol-storming MAGA cultist or to worshiping Andrew Tate. We seem to have forgotten about healthy and pro-social male role models and instead only focus on whatever downsides come with masculinity. Belonging to the male sex needs a serious PR campaign.

majormajor 4y ago
So do you disagree with the part of the article that points a finger at traditional expectations and stereotypes, such as: > “We used to think women were overutilizing health care, and men were doing it correctly,” Griffith said. “What we realized was that women were doing it better, mostly for preventive care, and men were actually underutilizing health care.” > Cultural biases around masculinity that teach boys and men to hide their feelings and not complain also can influence men’s health. > But even when visits for pregnancy are excluded, research suggests that women still are twice as likely as men to schedule regular annual exams and use preventive services. I don't think we ever had healthy male role models that were concerned about going to the doctor regularly, say. (The article also talks about some systemic issues in the last section, from two women at the Washington Post; as a result are these women being labeled as "oppressor class torch-carrying Capitol-storming MAGA cultist or to worshiping Andrew Tate" anywhere?)
Der_Einzige 4y ago
I realized this was the truth when I observed that while most feminists are "technically" against MGM (male circumcision at birth for non medically necessary reasons), very few are putting any serious energy into ending this barbaric practice. In fact, some complain that effort on ending this "trades off" with ending FGM, despite that FGM is quite rare in the USA and developed world while MGM is still happening to tens of millions of American babies It's mainly groups who are loosely affiliated with "MRAs" who are putting meaningful effort into ending this. I'm not a huge fan of "MRAs" or traditional "red pill" ideology - but men who look down and see evidence of the evils of a sick society on their body cannot find a meaningful defense from the very people who claim to want to "rescue" men from "patriarchal power structures".
- foogazi 4y ago
  > I realized this was the truth when I observed that while most feminists are "technically" against MGM Honestly we just need the dads on this one, but they’re probably going “I want his dick to look like mine”
SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
I think that there are plenty of positive masculine people to look up to, but they’re not as well regarded likely because pro-masculine, anti-misogyny positions don’t go viral. Look at healthygamer, a twitch streamer who is a man, a gamer psychiatrist man, and literally all he does is primarily address men’s issues of loneliness, struggling to find a gf, making friends, etc. F D Signifier is a black man who is fat, has two kids and is happily married, and talks a lot about masculinity and specifically how to be a black man, even talking about how black men are hypersexualized to the point where they’re expected to welcome sexual harassment. I like Folding Ideas, he just does YouTube about things and I think that’s neat, also a cis guy. Edited to add: healthygamer literally has a discord room with a channel just about taking photos of walking outside to prove you went and touched grass as an initiative to have an entire community cheer about people going outside. So it’s not just like one dude streaming, he’s actively community building to have healthy male mutual support networks.
- ameminator 4y ago
  I don't know if any of the people you mentioned should be considered good male role models. I think we should aspire to having exemplars who are more than simply heterosexual or a man, but who positively advocate for leading a purposeful life. "Look, here is a married fat person or a psychologist/gamer" doesn't quite cut it in my books, especially when then entire psychiatric profession labelled 'masculinity as a whole' as a _mental illness_. The sad fact is that society as a whole idolizes celebrity and does not celebrate moral ways of living. People who do advocate for moral ways of living are either a) demonized or b) considered "fringe" groups, like the Mennonites. Sure, various organized religions or even community organizations (like the Scouts) have had their scandals - but maybe we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater a little bit. There are many signs that our society is sick and that our culture is in the decline (falling marriage and birth rates, suicide, decline in life expectancy, decline in children's IQ etc...) and there just isn't an easy answer. Now, this is all separate and aside from men's issues, which are absolutely taboo to discuss. Anyone who even attempts to do so gets demonized. Jordan Peterson is a good example - his original message of how to live a responsible life and to own your 'destiny' can be very helpful, especially for men. Sure he is considered "cringe" and his online rants have become more and more unhinged. However, I consider this a _reaction_ to being demonized - originally, Peterson was very articulate, and there were many, many testimonials about how his books improved people's lives for the better. His story actually serves to discourage people who would otherwise speak up and improve the lives of people around them - here is someone whose message improved many lives and look what he became after years of constant vitriol and attacks.
alfor 4y ago
Our culture is trying to destroy the masculine as fast as it can. Tate and the rise of Islam is a reaction to it. You can look at all the Disney movies for kids: all men are stupid, liars, stealer, and when you hit them it’s funny. On the opposite the feminine is often perfect, manage it all on the first try. Currently most men get soft and depressed, a few react in opposition to the current progressive narrative. Here is one example with Moana https://youtu.be/ZT6Qo146Ncs https://youtu.be/ZT6Qo146Ncs
- tzs 4y ago
  > You can look at all the Disney movies for kids: all men are stupid, liars, stealer, and when you hit them it’s funny. On the opposite the feminine is often perfect, manage it all on the first try. A few counterexamples: Tangled, Wreck-It Ralph, Zootopia, Raya and the Last Dragon, Toy Story, Monsters Inc, Finding Nemo, The Incredibles, Ratatoullie, Up, The Good Dinosaur, Onward, Soul, and Luca.
  - DangitBobby 4y ago
    There are many examples of great men in modern media, but I have certainly noticed there are fewer positive, powerful male characters in newer media, and more comically evil/stupid/openly misogynistic caricatures.
  - alfor 4y ago
    Let me think. Tangled: The guy is a stealer that is aimless, the girl is pure heart, victim. Even the evil woman is a victim of the mens that stole the flower. Ralph: pretty stupid, (but good hearth) the girl is a victim and smart (more balanced) Incredible: this one is laughable, watch it again, the men is lying, fat, get into trouble and get saved by his wife. Also look at Frozen, you have evil men, stubborn father, and clueless men and women as victim and hero of the story. That is one where were a women punching a men as vengeance is funny and celebrated. (there is something similar in tangled with the frying pan)
- zamnos 4y ago
  I mean if you're going to complain that Disney provides bad role models, there are plenty of women's groups that would also agree with you.
xwdv 4y ago
In my experience, it's not worth discussing or even mentioning men’s issues with anyone that isn’t a man. And even then, the type of man matters, because a straight white male will have a totally different perspective than say, a gay black man.

majormajor 4y ago

So do you disagree with the part of the article that points a finger at traditional expectations and stereotypes, such as: > “We used to think women were overutilizing health care, and men were doing it correctly,” Griffith said. “What we realized was that women were doing it better, mostly for preventive care, and men were actually underutilizing health care.” > Cultural biases around masculinity that teach boys and men to hide their feelings and not complain also can influence men’s health. > But even when visits for pregnancy are excluded, research suggests that women still are twice as likely as men to schedule regular annual exams and use preventive services. I don't think we ever had healthy male role models that were concerned about going to the doctor regularly, say. (The article also talks about some systemic issues in the last section, from two women at the Washington Post; as a result are these women being labeled as "oppressor class torch-carrying Capitol-storming MAGA cultist or to worshiping Andrew Tate" anywhere?)

Der_Einzige 4y ago

I realized this was the truth when I observed that while most feminists are "technically" against MGM (male circumcision at birth for non medically necessary reasons), very few are putting any serious energy into ending this barbaric practice. In fact, some complain that effort on ending this "trades off" with ending FGM, despite that FGM is quite rare in the USA and developed world while MGM is still happening to tens of millions of American babies It's mainly groups who are loosely affiliated with "MRAs" who are putting meaningful effort into ending this. I'm not a huge fan of "MRAs" or traditional "red pill" ideology - but men who look down and see evidence of the evils of a sick society on their body cannot find a meaningful defense from the very people who claim to want to "rescue" men from "patriarchal power structures".

foogazi 4y ago
> I realized this was the truth when I observed that while most feminists are "technically" against MGM Honestly we just need the dads on this one, but they’re probably going “I want his dick to look like mine”

SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago

I think that there are plenty of positive masculine people to look up to, but they’re not as well regarded likely because pro-masculine, anti-misogyny positions don’t go viral. Look at healthygamer, a twitch streamer who is a man, a gamer psychiatrist man, and literally all he does is primarily address men’s issues of loneliness, struggling to find a gf, making friends, etc. F D Signifier is a black man who is fat, has two kids and is happily married, and talks a lot about masculinity and specifically how to be a black man, even talking about how black men are hypersexualized to the point where they’re expected to welcome sexual harassment. I like Folding Ideas, he just does YouTube about things and I think that’s neat, also a cis guy. Edited to add: healthygamer literally has a discord room with a channel just about taking photos of walking outside to prove you went and touched grass as an initiative to have an entire community cheer about people going outside. So it’s not just like one dude streaming, he’s actively community building to have healthy male mutual support networks.

ameminator 4y ago
I don't know if any of the people you mentioned should be considered good male role models. I think we should aspire to having exemplars who are more than simply heterosexual or a man, but who positively advocate for leading a purposeful life. "Look, here is a married fat person or a psychologist/gamer" doesn't quite cut it in my books, especially when then entire psychiatric profession labelled 'masculinity as a whole' as a _mental illness_. The sad fact is that society as a whole idolizes celebrity and does not celebrate moral ways of living. People who do advocate for moral ways of living are either a) demonized or b) considered "fringe" groups, like the Mennonites. Sure, various organized religions or even community organizations (like the Scouts) have had their scandals - but maybe we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater a little bit. There are many signs that our society is sick and that our culture is in the decline (falling marriage and birth rates, suicide, decline in life expectancy, decline in children's IQ etc...) and there just isn't an easy answer. Now, this is all separate and aside from men's issues, which are absolutely taboo to discuss. Anyone who even attempts to do so gets demonized. Jordan Peterson is a good example - his original message of how to live a responsible life and to own your 'destiny' can be very helpful, especially for men. Sure he is considered "cringe" and his online rants have become more and more unhinged. However, I consider this a _reaction_ to being demonized - originally, Peterson was very articulate, and there were many, many testimonials about how his books improved people's lives for the better. His story actually serves to discourage people who would otherwise speak up and improve the lives of people around them - here is someone whose message improved many lives and look what he became after years of constant vitriol and attacks.

alfor 4y ago

Our culture is trying to destroy the masculine as fast as it can. Tate and the rise of Islam is a reaction to it. You can look at all the Disney movies for kids: all men are stupid, liars, stealer, and when you hit them it’s funny. On the opposite the feminine is often perfect, manage it all on the first try. Currently most men get soft and depressed, a few react in opposition to the current progressive narrative. Here is one example with Moana https://youtu.be/ZT6Qo146Ncs https://youtu.be/ZT6Qo146Ncs

tzs 4y ago
> You can look at all the Disney movies for kids: all men are stupid, liars, stealer, and when you hit them it’s funny. On the opposite the feminine is often perfect, manage it all on the first try. A few counterexamples: Tangled, Wreck-It Ralph, Zootopia, Raya and the Last Dragon, Toy Story, Monsters Inc, Finding Nemo, The Incredibles, Ratatoullie, Up, The Good Dinosaur, Onward, Soul, and Luca.
- DangitBobby 4y ago
  There are many examples of great men in modern media, but I have certainly noticed there are fewer positive, powerful male characters in newer media, and more comically evil/stupid/openly misogynistic caricatures.
- alfor 4y ago
  Let me think. Tangled: The guy is a stealer that is aimless, the girl is pure heart, victim. Even the evil woman is a victim of the mens that stole the flower. Ralph: pretty stupid, (but good hearth) the girl is a victim and smart (more balanced) Incredible: this one is laughable, watch it again, the men is lying, fat, get into trouble and get saved by his wife. Also look at Frozen, you have evil men, stubborn father, and clueless men and women as victim and hero of the story. That is one where were a women punching a men as vengeance is funny and celebrated. (there is something similar in tangled with the frying pan)
zamnos 4y ago
I mean if you're going to complain that Disney provides bad role models, there are plenty of women's groups that would also agree with you.

xwdv 4y ago

In my experience, it's not worth discussing or even mentioning men’s issues with anyone that isn’t a man. And even then, the type of man matters, because a straight white male will have a totally different perspective than say, a gay black man.