8 ms·

A silent crisis in men’s health gets worse

45 points by herbertl 4y ago

8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
We're not going to make much progress here as long as being interested or active in men's issues is equated to being an oppressor class torch-carrying Capitol-storming MAGA cultist or to worshiping Andrew Tate. We seem to have forgotten about healthy and pro-social male role models and instead only focus on whatever downsides come with masculinity. Belonging to the male sex needs a serious PR campaign.
- majormajor 4y ago
  So do you disagree with the part of the article that points a finger at traditional expectations and stereotypes, such as: > “We used to think women were overutilizing health care, and men were doing it correctly,” Griffith said. “What we realized was that women were doing it better, mostly for preventive care, and men were actually underutilizing health care.” > Cultural biases around masculinity that teach boys and men to hide their feelings and not complain also can influence men’s health. > But even when visits for pregnancy are excluded, research suggests that women still are twice as likely as men to schedule regular annual exams and use preventive services. I don't think we ever had healthy male role models that were concerned about going to the doctor regularly, say. (The article also talks about some systemic issues in the last section, from two women at the Washington Post; as a result are these women being labeled as "oppressor class torch-carrying Capitol-storming MAGA cultist or to worshiping Andrew Tate" anywhere?)
- Der_Einzige 4y ago
  I realized this was the truth when I observed that while most feminists are "technically" against MGM (male circumcision at birth for non medically necessary reasons), very few are putting any serious energy into ending this barbaric practice. In fact, some complain that effort on ending this "trades off" with ending FGM, despite that FGM is quite rare in the USA and developed world while MGM is still happening to tens of millions of American babies It's mainly groups who are loosely affiliated with "MRAs" who are putting meaningful effort into ending this. I'm not a huge fan of "MRAs" or traditional "red pill" ideology - but men who look down and see evidence of the evils of a sick society on their body cannot find a meaningful defense from the very people who claim to want to "rescue" men from "patriarchal power structures".
  - foogazi 4y ago
    > I realized this was the truth when I observed that while most feminists are "technically" against MGM Honestly we just need the dads on this one, but they’re probably going “I want his dick to look like mine”
- SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
  I think that there are plenty of positive masculine people to look up to, but they’re not as well regarded likely because pro-masculine, anti-misogyny positions don’t go viral. Look at healthygamer, a twitch streamer who is a man, a gamer psychiatrist man, and literally all he does is primarily address men’s issues of loneliness, struggling to find a gf, making friends, etc. F D Signifier is a black man who is fat, has two kids and is happily married, and talks a lot about masculinity and specifically how to be a black man, even talking about how black men are hypersexualized to the point where they’re expected to welcome sexual harassment. I like Folding Ideas, he just does YouTube about things and I think that’s neat, also a cis guy. Edited to add: healthygamer literally has a discord room with a channel just about taking photos of walking outside to prove you went and touched grass as an initiative to have an entire community cheer about people going outside. So it’s not just like one dude streaming, he’s actively community building to have healthy male mutual support networks.
  - ameminator 4y ago
    I don't know if any of the people you mentioned should be considered good male role models. I think we should aspire to having exemplars who are more than simply heterosexual or a man, but who positively advocate for leading a purposeful life. "Look, here is a married fat person or a psychologist/gamer" doesn't quite cut it in my books, especially when then entire psychiatric profession labelled 'masculinity as a whole' as a _mental illness_. The sad fact is that society as a whole idolizes celebrity and does not celebrate moral ways of living. People who do advocate for moral ways of living are either a) demonized or b) considered "fringe" groups, like the Mennonites. Sure, various organized religions or even community organizations (like the Scouts) have had their scandals - but maybe we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater a little bit. There are many signs that our society is sick and that our culture is in the decline (falling marriage and birth rates, suicide, decline in life expectancy, decline in children's IQ etc...) and there just isn't an easy answer. Now, this is all separate and aside from men's issues, which are absolutely taboo to discuss. Anyone who even attempts to do so gets demonized. Jordan Peterson is a good example - his original message of how to live a responsible life and to own your 'destiny' can be very helpful, especially for men. Sure he is considered "cringe" and his online rants have become more and more unhinged. However, I consider this a _reaction_ to being demonized - originally, Peterson was very articulate, and there were many, many testimonials about how his books improved people's lives for the better. His story actually serves to discourage people who would otherwise speak up and improve the lives of people around them - here is someone whose message improved many lives and look what he became after years of constant vitriol and attacks.
- alfor 4y ago
  Our culture is trying to destroy the masculine as fast as it can. Tate and the rise of Islam is a reaction to it. You can look at all the Disney movies for kids: all men are stupid, liars, stealer, and when you hit them it’s funny. On the opposite the feminine is often perfect, manage it all on the first try. Currently most men get soft and depressed, a few react in opposition to the current progressive narrative. Here is one example with Moana https://youtu.be/ZT6Qo146Ncs https://youtu.be/ZT6Qo146Ncs
  - tzs 4y ago
    > You can look at all the Disney movies for kids: all men are stupid, liars, stealer, and when you hit them it’s funny. On the opposite the feminine is often perfect, manage it all on the first try. A few counterexamples: Tangled, Wreck-It Ralph, Zootopia, Raya and the Last Dragon, Toy Story, Monsters Inc, Finding Nemo, The Incredibles, Ratatoullie, Up, The Good Dinosaur, Onward, Soul, and Luca.
    - DangitBobby 4y ago
      There are many examples of great men in modern media, but I have certainly noticed there are fewer positive, powerful male characters in newer media, and more comically evil/stupid/openly misogynistic caricatures.
    - alfor 4y ago
      Let me think. Tangled: The guy is a stealer that is aimless, the girl is pure heart, victim. Even the evil woman is a victim of the mens that stole the flower. Ralph: pretty stupid, (but good hearth) the girl is a victim and smart (more balanced) Incredible: this one is laughable, watch it again, the men is lying, fat, get into trouble and get saved by his wife. Also look at Frozen, you have evil men, stubborn father, and clueless men and women as victim and hero of the story. That is one where were a women punching a men as vengeance is funny and celebrated. (there is something similar in tangled with the frying pan)
  - zamnos 4y ago
    I mean if you're going to complain that Disney provides bad role models, there are plenty of women's groups that would also agree with you.
- xwdv 4y ago
  In my experience, it's not worth discussing or even mentioning men’s issues with anyone that isn’t a man. And even then, the type of man matters, because a straight white male will have a totally different perspective than say, a gay black man.
yodsanklai 4y ago
> “Men are advantaged in every aspect of our society, > “We tend not to prioritize men’s health, but it needs unique attention, and it has implications for the rest of the family. It means other members of the family, including women and children, also suffer.” > Advocates for more research into men’s health say the goal isn’t to steal resources from women, girls and gender minorities. So men's health deserves to be an issue only because it may impact children well-being, and only if it doesn't steal resource from other more noble causes. I don't know how US audience reads this type of article, but as a foreigner, it seems every single issue nowadays has to be artificially rebranded as a social justice fight.
- atleastoptimal 4y ago
  The problem, at least in US general social discourse, it everything is viewed through an essentialist lens. It's an addictive resolution to the ambiguity of post-modern thought, because it reduces nuances to a cacophony of labels, creates clear villain/hero dichotomies, and allows everyone to architect their maximal perfect victimhood.
  - soneca 4y ago
    What is essentialism?
    - ianai 4y ago
      Basically a thing is only the sum of its parts. Dictionary defines it as the backwards of existentialism: essence precedes existence
    - xattt 4y ago
      Apparently, it’s reducing that individuals are what they are, because of the circumstances that created them (like root cause analysis). This is in contrast to assigning some other factor that may be that might be too paternalistic, too taboo or too “blamey” to consider (like incompetence or a lack of spirituality/belief). It’s a bit of a mindfuck for me, because how else are you going to explain a given situation without looking at the factors that created them.
chaostheory 4y ago
Historically, the reason men reap the lion share’s of power and resources is because we take the risks. We take life threatening risks because compared to women, we are expendable. Not sure what’s happening now assuming we are supposedly working towards equality (which should include both the good and the bad eg women should be able to get drafted just like men and the custody of children should not predominantly favor women) and the “lean in” movement isn’t just a fad
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  > Historically, the reason men reap the lion share’s of power and resources is because we take the risks. I would have thought it had something to do with almost all men being able to physically overpower almost all women. Which might also guide how which risks women are willing to take compared to men.
  - DangitBobby 4y ago
    What point are you making?
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      In nature, might makes right. It makes sense to me that men reap the “lion’s share of power and resources” simply because they can take them from women, not because of men taking more risks (which I am not sure how one can make that statement anyway since men and women are exposed to very different risks that are not easily comparable in magnitude).
      - DangitBobby 4y ago
        I think it's fair to say that for whatever reason (biological, cultural, or otherwise) men are exposed to greater risk since they die at a higher rate for every age group (just based on the graph in the article).
        4y ago
brailsafe 4y ago
> “Men are advantaged in every aspect of our society, yet we have worse health outcomes for most of the things that will kill you,” Maybe it's not a good idea to predicate any mention of serious men's health issues with initial blanket dismissal / overt acceptance of discrimination and subsequently making it about how it's actually important for these other groups. Even if aspects of that are hypothetically arguable, let the point be made to be important on it's own.
- DangitBobby 4y ago
  It's pretty much impossible to write an article about issues that disproportionately affect men and boys without first establishing that other groups have it worse and signing off with facts about how it's actually their fault anyway. You see this in every discussion about men/boys neglected in education or having worse health outcomes and life expectancy.
atleastoptimal 4y ago
The problem with addressing men's mental health is that many who claim to advocate for it fail to realize that they perpetuate and reinforce the very culture that causes men's mental health issues. They claim to care about the plight of men who are body shamed, but make small dick jokes, worship traditionally attractive male archetypes, and think it's funny when a pathetic, evil male character is either short, bald, or has a high-pitched voice. They claim to care about men lagging in education, but pay much more attention to the academic/professional fields that are "boy's clubs" and never talk about "girl's clubs" in the same way, even though nowadays women outnumber male college graduates 3 to 2. They claim to be all for sex positivity, but continually vilify male sexuality, to the point that men feel scared to express their desires and urges without being labeled a predator/sex pest/-cel adjacent. The reason men's mental health is so messed up nowadays is that people on all sides of the spectrum seem to implicitly reinforce a traditionally masculine winner takes all culture, where the confident, attractive and aggressive men reap all the rewards. Any reasonable heterosexual male isn't gonna look at this reality of modern culture and think "well, at least I know how to share my emotions properly", when they see the positive romantic attention lauded much more often on those embodying the more stoic, traditional male stereotypes. They'd much rather do whatever it takes to fit into that stereotype so they don't miss out when they're still young. And further, if they feel that no amount of effort will get them there, and they express that concern, they are offered no sympathy. I think this addresses a large part of the issue well: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-roman...
deleted 4y ago
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gleb 4y ago
What's up with that dramatically different shape of the "Ratio of male-to-female death rates across ages for the U.S., other countries" graph between say Chile/US and South Korea?
antiquark 4y ago
> Men are advantaged in every aspect of our society This calls for an obligatory Jordan Peterson video: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/mgDvTew6TXU https://www.youtube.com/shorts/mgDvTew6TXU
- foogazi 4y ago
  sounds very disingenuous to me Males have dominated all power structures in every society in the history of humankind Why are men doing this to themselves?
  - antiquark 4y ago
    > men doing this to themselves So the patriarchy is anti-male?
    - foogazi 4y ago
      Always has been according to JP
    - orwin 4y ago
      Yes, that what's Beauvoir argued for. And if you prefer American and a bit older, that what Emma Goldman basically said, that the power structure of capitalist America (and later the Marxist leninist Russia once she saw what the butcher of Kronstad did) was hierarchical and that to avoid having the bottom revolt against them, the top direct the anger to citizen lower than them. I personally don't think it's on purpose, I think most people lack courage and prefer punching down rather than punching up. Yes the civil rights movement was impeded by politician and some violent white nationalists, but the overt political support was from middle to high class female, and you don't have to read a ton of anarchist / Marxist books to understand why.
      - foogazi 4y ago
        > I think most people lack courage and prefer punching down rather than punching up. I think it’s loss aversion and belonging to the in-group Men control power and also control what little power other men have
aroundtown 4y ago
The worst part of even trying to have a discussion about men's health and issues today is how often it devolves into arguments about male status in society. If we had more empathy for one another it would be easier to solve the problem instead of arguing about who suffers most. We all suffer, we should help each other suffer less.
ianai 4y ago
Somehow it’s in my mind that societies with an “over abundance” of men are more likely to be violent and go to war. I think I got it from sociology long ago. If men aren’t taking their health seriously I wonder if it could reflect a societal stigma similar to an over abundance of men with similar outcomes. Feels like we’re in that kind of historical swing at least.
manthrowaway 4y ago
Life sucks for everyone (men, woman, children, etc.). Most “support” and charity towards those causes has been primarily through material means — merely acting like a band-aid or an anti-depressant to “keep you going, until — perhaps — one day your life improves and you don’t need it anymore. There are a limited number of resources (physical, mental, emotional, human, etc.). Most of them have gone towards people that are viewed as being unable to “pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and soldier through the shit” — primarily women, and children to a lesser degree. If you were to start supporting men, you would necessarily deplete the already bare resource that is human compassion — and deprive others of it (whether current, by redistribution and reallocation, or future and expected, I.e men’s issues become the new fad, as women’s issues have been, but overtake the latter). One can twist logic all one wants to try to find a way that isn’t true to balm the cruel reality of being alive — it is a constant effort to survive, and make the most of the resources in one’s environment (this goes for all living things). This couples with the reality that women are more likely to “pull themselves up” via group and social dynamics —- I.e the reason why “women’s issues” are a thing (gravely overshadowing children’s issues, something I find more important, vital, and underrepresented — because children cannot organize together in any meaningful capacity). In contrast to men, who suffer alone and — perhaps — one day find the good fortune of life improving — rather than banding together or influencing others to help fix their own lives. With all this in mind, I don’t think men’s issues will ever be a “thing” — except some passing fad that halfheartedly and halfassedly “addresses men’s issues.” The main issue is that life is hard — it’s a constant struggle. The way women and children receive support is different than what men need. Men just need some peace and quiet to sort their shit out - and then do the work to build up their own social support networks (via community and other men) - if they so desire. The most straightforward way to do that would be to improve working conditions, access to sustainable employment, a place to rest that is both peaceful and affordable, and access to good affordable food. But we all need that don’t we? And the apparently-less-abled are first in line to receive those resources — while men are in the back of the line.
BigCryo 4y ago
Probably dying of depression because of being demonized in the media constantly
tzs 4y ago
> Men are at a greater risk of dying from covid-19 than women, a gap that cannot be explained by rates of infection or preexisting conditions. I noticed during the worst parts of the pandemic in the US that the people who decided to not try to do anything to avoid getting it and if they did get it didn't take it seriously were much more likely to be male. That might explain some of the difference. (Although then it raises the question of why males were more likely to ignore COVID). > More men die of diabetes than women. Obesity seems to be a pretty strong contributor to becoming diabetic. Too much excess body fat seems to be a particular aspect of obesity that is involved. I wonder if women get an advantage here because a healthy female body has a higher body fat percentage than does a health male body? As a man becomes obese and puts on excess fat, the percentage of excess fat will be going up faster than the percentage of excess fat in a woman who is becoming obese and putting on excess fat. > The cancer mortality rate is higher among men. I wish they'd have gone into more detail. First, a breakdown by cancer type would be useful. Some cancer risk is associated with behavior, such as lung cancer with smoking. Males are more likely to smoke. Another example would be skin cancer, which is associated with UV exposure. I think males are more likely to have jobs that require being outside all day on high UV days. Second, I'd have liked to also see the rates for getting cancer rather than just the mortality rate. There are two ways males can have a higher death rate from cancer X than females. One is that males and females get X at the same rate, but males with X die at a higher rate than females. That would suggest there might be something wrong with how we handle X in males. The other way is that males get X at higher rate than females, but people with X die at about the same rate regardless of sex. If that's the case then it is how people get X that we need to look it.
richliss 4y ago
This article really hit home today. I spent about 30 minutes typing up a recent experience and how I felt. I deleted it because my urge not to impose is too strong. I need a dog.

45 points by herbertl 4y ago

We're not going to make much progress here as long as being interested or active in men's issues is equated to being an oppressor class torch-carrying Capitol-storming MAGA cultist or to worshiping Andrew Tate. We seem to have forgotten about healthy and pro-social male role models and instead only focus on whatever downsides come with masculinity. Belonging to the male sex needs a serious PR campaign.

majormajor 4y ago
So do you disagree with the part of the article that points a finger at traditional expectations and stereotypes, such as: > “We used to think women were overutilizing health care, and men were doing it correctly,” Griffith said. “What we realized was that women were doing it better, mostly for preventive care, and men were actually underutilizing health care.” > Cultural biases around masculinity that teach boys and men to hide their feelings and not complain also can influence men’s health. > But even when visits for pregnancy are excluded, research suggests that women still are twice as likely as men to schedule regular annual exams and use preventive services. I don't think we ever had healthy male role models that were concerned about going to the doctor regularly, say. (The article also talks about some systemic issues in the last section, from two women at the Washington Post; as a result are these women being labeled as "oppressor class torch-carrying Capitol-storming MAGA cultist or to worshiping Andrew Tate" anywhere?)
Der_Einzige 4y ago
I realized this was the truth when I observed that while most feminists are "technically" against MGM (male circumcision at birth for non medically necessary reasons), very few are putting any serious energy into ending this barbaric practice. In fact, some complain that effort on ending this "trades off" with ending FGM, despite that FGM is quite rare in the USA and developed world while MGM is still happening to tens of millions of American babies It's mainly groups who are loosely affiliated with "MRAs" who are putting meaningful effort into ending this. I'm not a huge fan of "MRAs" or traditional "red pill" ideology - but men who look down and see evidence of the evils of a sick society on their body cannot find a meaningful defense from the very people who claim to want to "rescue" men from "patriarchal power structures".
- foogazi 4y ago
  > I realized this was the truth when I observed that while most feminists are "technically" against MGM Honestly we just need the dads on this one, but they’re probably going “I want his dick to look like mine”
SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
I think that there are plenty of positive masculine people to look up to, but they’re not as well regarded likely because pro-masculine, anti-misogyny positions don’t go viral. Look at healthygamer, a twitch streamer who is a man, a gamer psychiatrist man, and literally all he does is primarily address men’s issues of loneliness, struggling to find a gf, making friends, etc. F D Signifier is a black man who is fat, has two kids and is happily married, and talks a lot about masculinity and specifically how to be a black man, even talking about how black men are hypersexualized to the point where they’re expected to welcome sexual harassment. I like Folding Ideas, he just does YouTube about things and I think that’s neat, also a cis guy. Edited to add: healthygamer literally has a discord room with a channel just about taking photos of walking outside to prove you went and touched grass as an initiative to have an entire community cheer about people going outside. So it’s not just like one dude streaming, he’s actively community building to have healthy male mutual support networks.
- ameminator 4y ago
  I don't know if any of the people you mentioned should be considered good male role models. I think we should aspire to having exemplars who are more than simply heterosexual or a man, but who positively advocate for leading a purposeful life. "Look, here is a married fat person or a psychologist/gamer" doesn't quite cut it in my books, especially when then entire psychiatric profession labelled 'masculinity as a whole' as a _mental illness_. The sad fact is that society as a whole idolizes celebrity and does not celebrate moral ways of living. People who do advocate for moral ways of living are either a) demonized or b) considered "fringe" groups, like the Mennonites. Sure, various organized religions or even community organizations (like the Scouts) have had their scandals - but maybe we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater a little bit. There are many signs that our society is sick and that our culture is in the decline (falling marriage and birth rates, suicide, decline in life expectancy, decline in children's IQ etc...) and there just isn't an easy answer. Now, this is all separate and aside from men's issues, which are absolutely taboo to discuss. Anyone who even attempts to do so gets demonized. Jordan Peterson is a good example - his original message of how to live a responsible life and to own your 'destiny' can be very helpful, especially for men. Sure he is considered "cringe" and his online rants have become more and more unhinged. However, I consider this a _reaction_ to being demonized - originally, Peterson was very articulate, and there were many, many testimonials about how his books improved people's lives for the better. His story actually serves to discourage people who would otherwise speak up and improve the lives of people around them - here is someone whose message improved many lives and look what he became after years of constant vitriol and attacks.
alfor 4y ago
Our culture is trying to destroy the masculine as fast as it can. Tate and the rise of Islam is a reaction to it. You can look at all the Disney movies for kids: all men are stupid, liars, stealer, and when you hit them it’s funny. On the opposite the feminine is often perfect, manage it all on the first try. Currently most men get soft and depressed, a few react in opposition to the current progressive narrative. Here is one example with Moana https://youtu.be/ZT6Qo146Ncs https://youtu.be/ZT6Qo146Ncs
- tzs 4y ago
  > You can look at all the Disney movies for kids: all men are stupid, liars, stealer, and when you hit them it’s funny. On the opposite the feminine is often perfect, manage it all on the first try. A few counterexamples: Tangled, Wreck-It Ralph, Zootopia, Raya and the Last Dragon, Toy Story, Monsters Inc, Finding Nemo, The Incredibles, Ratatoullie, Up, The Good Dinosaur, Onward, Soul, and Luca.
  - DangitBobby 4y ago
    There are many examples of great men in modern media, but I have certainly noticed there are fewer positive, powerful male characters in newer media, and more comically evil/stupid/openly misogynistic caricatures.
  - alfor 4y ago
    Let me think. Tangled: The guy is a stealer that is aimless, the girl is pure heart, victim. Even the evil woman is a victim of the mens that stole the flower. Ralph: pretty stupid, (but good hearth) the girl is a victim and smart (more balanced) Incredible: this one is laughable, watch it again, the men is lying, fat, get into trouble and get saved by his wife. Also look at Frozen, you have evil men, stubborn father, and clueless men and women as victim and hero of the story. That is one where were a women punching a men as vengeance is funny and celebrated. (there is something similar in tangled with the frying pan)
- zamnos 4y ago
  I mean if you're going to complain that Disney provides bad role models, there are plenty of women's groups that would also agree with you.
xwdv 4y ago
In my experience, it's not worth discussing or even mentioning men’s issues with anyone that isn’t a man. And even then, the type of man matters, because a straight white male will have a totally different perspective than say, a gay black man.

yodsanklai 4y ago

> “Men are advantaged in every aspect of our society, > “We tend not to prioritize men’s health, but it needs unique attention, and it has implications for the rest of the family. It means other members of the family, including women and children, also suffer.” > Advocates for more research into men’s health say the goal isn’t to steal resources from women, girls and gender minorities. So men's health deserves to be an issue only because it may impact children well-being, and only if it doesn't steal resource from other more noble causes. I don't know how US audience reads this type of article, but as a foreigner, it seems every single issue nowadays has to be artificially rebranded as a social justice fight.

atleastoptimal 4y ago
The problem, at least in US general social discourse, it everything is viewed through an essentialist lens. It's an addictive resolution to the ambiguity of post-modern thought, because it reduces nuances to a cacophony of labels, creates clear villain/hero dichotomies, and allows everyone to architect their maximal perfect victimhood.
- soneca 4y ago
  What is essentialism?
  - ianai 4y ago
    Basically a thing is only the sum of its parts. Dictionary defines it as the backwards of existentialism: essence precedes existence
  - xattt 4y ago
    Apparently, it’s reducing that individuals are what they are, because of the circumstances that created them (like root cause analysis). This is in contrast to assigning some other factor that may be that might be too paternalistic, too taboo or too “blamey” to consider (like incompetence or a lack of spirituality/belief). It’s a bit of a mindfuck for me, because how else are you going to explain a given situation without looking at the factors that created them.

chaostheory 4y ago

Historically, the reason men reap the lion share’s of power and resources is because we take the risks. We take life threatening risks because compared to women, we are expendable. Not sure what’s happening now assuming we are supposedly working towards equality (which should include both the good and the bad eg women should be able to get drafted just like men and the custody of children should not predominantly favor women) and the “lean in” movement isn’t just a fad

lotsofpulp 4y ago
> Historically, the reason men reap the lion share’s of power and resources is because we take the risks. I would have thought it had something to do with almost all men being able to physically overpower almost all women. Which might also guide how which risks women are willing to take compared to men.
- DangitBobby 4y ago
  What point are you making?
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    In nature, might makes right. It makes sense to me that men reap the “lion’s share of power and resources” simply because they can take them from women, not because of men taking more risks (which I am not sure how one can make that statement anyway since men and women are exposed to very different risks that are not easily comparable in magnitude).
    - DangitBobby 4y ago
      I think it's fair to say that for whatever reason (biological, cultural, or otherwise) men are exposed to greater risk since they die at a higher rate for every age group (just based on the graph in the article).
      - 4y ago

brailsafe 4y ago

> “Men are advantaged in every aspect of our society, yet we have worse health outcomes for most of the things that will kill you,” Maybe it's not a good idea to predicate any mention of serious men's health issues with initial blanket dismissal / overt acceptance of discrimination and subsequently making it about how it's actually important for these other groups. Even if aspects of that are hypothetically arguable, let the point be made to be important on it's own.

DangitBobby 4y ago
It's pretty much impossible to write an article about issues that disproportionately affect men and boys without first establishing that other groups have it worse and signing off with facts about how it's actually their fault anyway. You see this in every discussion about men/boys neglected in education or having worse health outcomes and life expectancy.

atleastoptimal 4y ago

The problem with addressing men's mental health is that many who claim to advocate for it fail to realize that they perpetuate and reinforce the very culture that causes men's mental health issues. They claim to care about the plight of men who are body shamed, but make small dick jokes, worship traditionally attractive male archetypes, and think it's funny when a pathetic, evil male character is either short, bald, or has a high-pitched voice. They claim to care about men lagging in education, but pay much more attention to the academic/professional fields that are "boy's clubs" and never talk about "girl's clubs" in the same way, even though nowadays women outnumber male college graduates 3 to 2. They claim to be all for sex positivity, but continually vilify male sexuality, to the point that men feel scared to express their desires and urges without being labeled a predator/sex pest/-cel adjacent. The reason men's mental health is so messed up nowadays is that people on all sides of the spectrum seem to implicitly reinforce a traditionally masculine winner takes all culture, where the confident, attractive and aggressive men reap all the rewards. Any reasonable heterosexual male isn't gonna look at this reality of modern culture and think "well, at least I know how to share my emotions properly", when they see the positive romantic attention lauded much more often on those embodying the more stoic, traditional male stereotypes. They'd much rather do whatever it takes to fit into that stereotype so they don't miss out when they're still young. And further, if they feel that no amount of effort will get them there, and they express that concern, they are offered no sympathy. I think this addresses a large part of the issue well: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-roman...

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gleb 4y ago

What's up with that dramatically different shape of the "Ratio of male-to-female death rates across ages for the U.S., other countries" graph between say Chile/US and South Korea?

antiquark 4y ago

> Men are advantaged in every aspect of our society This calls for an obligatory Jordan Peterson video: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/mgDvTew6TXU https://www.youtube.com/shorts/mgDvTew6TXU

foogazi 4y ago
sounds very disingenuous to me Males have dominated all power structures in every society in the history of humankind Why are men doing this to themselves?
- antiquark 4y ago
  > men doing this to themselves So the patriarchy is anti-male?
  - foogazi 4y ago
    Always has been according to JP
  - orwin 4y ago
    Yes, that what's Beauvoir argued for. And if you prefer American and a bit older, that what Emma Goldman basically said, that the power structure of capitalist America (and later the Marxist leninist Russia once she saw what the butcher of Kronstad did) was hierarchical and that to avoid having the bottom revolt against them, the top direct the anger to citizen lower than them. I personally don't think it's on purpose, I think most people lack courage and prefer punching down rather than punching up. Yes the civil rights movement was impeded by politician and some violent white nationalists, but the overt political support was from middle to high class female, and you don't have to read a ton of anarchist / Marxist books to understand why.
    - foogazi 4y ago
      > I think most people lack courage and prefer punching down rather than punching up. I think it’s loss aversion and belonging to the in-group Men control power and also control what little power other men have

aroundtown 4y ago

The worst part of even trying to have a discussion about men's health and issues today is how often it devolves into arguments about male status in society. If we had more empathy for one another it would be easier to solve the problem instead of arguing about who suffers most. We all suffer, we should help each other suffer less.

ianai 4y ago

Somehow it’s in my mind that societies with an “over abundance” of men are more likely to be violent and go to war. I think I got it from sociology long ago. If men aren’t taking their health seriously I wonder if it could reflect a societal stigma similar to an over abundance of men with similar outcomes. Feels like we’re in that kind of historical swing at least.

manthrowaway 4y ago

Life sucks for everyone (men, woman, children, etc.). Most “support” and charity towards those causes has been primarily through material means — merely acting like a band-aid or an anti-depressant to “keep you going, until — perhaps — one day your life improves and you don’t need it anymore. There are a limited number of resources (physical, mental, emotional, human, etc.). Most of them have gone towards people that are viewed as being unable to “pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and soldier through the shit” — primarily women, and children to a lesser degree. If you were to start supporting men, you would necessarily deplete the already bare resource that is human compassion — and deprive others of it (whether current, by redistribution and reallocation, or future and expected, I.e men’s issues become the new fad, as women’s issues have been, but overtake the latter). One can twist logic all one wants to try to find a way that isn’t true to balm the cruel reality of being alive — it is a constant effort to survive, and make the most of the resources in one’s environment (this goes for all living things). This couples with the reality that women are more likely to “pull themselves up” via group and social dynamics —- I.e the reason why “women’s issues” are a thing (gravely overshadowing children’s issues, something I find more important, vital, and underrepresented — because children cannot organize together in any meaningful capacity). In contrast to men, who suffer alone and — perhaps — one day find the good fortune of life improving — rather than banding together or influencing others to help fix their own lives. With all this in mind, I don’t think men’s issues will ever be a “thing” — except some passing fad that halfheartedly and halfassedly “addresses men’s issues.” The main issue is that life is hard — it’s a constant struggle. The way women and children receive support is different than what men need. Men just need some peace and quiet to sort their shit out - and then do the work to build up their own social support networks (via community and other men) - if they so desire. The most straightforward way to do that would be to improve working conditions, access to sustainable employment, a place to rest that is both peaceful and affordable, and access to good affordable food. But we all need that don’t we? And the apparently-less-abled are first in line to receive those resources — while men are in the back of the line.

BigCryo 4y ago

Probably dying of depression because of being demonized in the media constantly

tzs 4y ago

> Men are at a greater risk of dying from covid-19 than women, a gap that cannot be explained by rates of infection or preexisting conditions. I noticed during the worst parts of the pandemic in the US that the people who decided to not try to do anything to avoid getting it and if they did get it didn't take it seriously were much more likely to be male. That might explain some of the difference. (Although then it raises the question of why males were more likely to ignore COVID). > More men die of diabetes than women. Obesity seems to be a pretty strong contributor to becoming diabetic. Too much excess body fat seems to be a particular aspect of obesity that is involved. I wonder if women get an advantage here because a healthy female body has a higher body fat percentage than does a health male body? As a man becomes obese and puts on excess fat, the percentage of excess fat will be going up faster than the percentage of excess fat in a woman who is becoming obese and putting on excess fat. > The cancer mortality rate is higher among men. I wish they'd have gone into more detail. First, a breakdown by cancer type would be useful. Some cancer risk is associated with behavior, such as lung cancer with smoking. Males are more likely to smoke. Another example would be skin cancer, which is associated with UV exposure. I think males are more likely to have jobs that require being outside all day on high UV days. Second, I'd have liked to also see the rates for getting cancer rather than just the mortality rate. There are two ways males can have a higher death rate from cancer X than females. One is that males and females get X at the same rate, but males with X die at a higher rate than females. That would suggest there might be something wrong with how we handle X in males. The other way is that males get X at higher rate than females, but people with X die at about the same rate regardless of sex. If that's the case then it is how people get X that we need to look it.

richliss 4y ago

This article really hit home today. I spent about 30 minutes typing up a recent experience and how I felt. I deleted it because my urge not to impose is too strong. I need a dog.