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> “Political satire in china is pretty not-okay,” Holz posted on Discord Tough shit. China will just have to grow up. > He added that “the ability for people

> “Political satire in china is pretty not-okay,” Holz posted on Discord Tough shit. China will just have to grow up. > He added that “the ability for people in China to use this tech is more important than your ability to generate satire.” No, it isn't.

snapcaster 4y ago
Why not? Do you think that the customs of your tribe and island are the laws of nature?
- rektide 4y ago
  First we're talking about open versus closed societies, not tribes. The repression of spirit closed societies impose on their members is a humanitarian concern, imperils the soul, eats away at becoming ourselves. Open society all the way. Society has to be allowed to consider itself. Second, this isn't laws of the land. It's the internet, the unplace where different places can meet & connect. Your suggestion proposes that it's the pro-speech folk forcing themselves upon the world. Not so. What's actually happening in this story is the small authoritarian lowest-common-denominators of the world are imposing their views on all interconnectivity, on everyone else. They are constraining everyone else. And tech bosses keep letting it happen, keep letting ourselves be bullied. And the governments of open societies are not stepping up to illuminate & push these issues as the threats to open society that they are. Two absurd inconsistencies. Human rights are amazing. The suppression of humanity is dreadful. That's the "tribe" you are defending.
  - snapcaster 4y ago
    These are all your opinions and personal values. I agree with all of them on a personal level. Where I think we disagree is that this is some kind of "pro speech" vs. "anti speech" battle. I see it more as a global US led Imperium attempting to impose their opinions and personal values on people throughout the world regardless of what those citizens or governments think. I'm in the US, me and my countrypeople shouldn't get a say in what happens in Hong Kong. Just like China shouldn't get a say in what happens in the US. Why isn't that enough?
    - rektide 4y ago
      This is a atopical line of inquiry & ignores what is happening. It's an ad-hominem argument against the US. Open society is far more than the US. 43% of the nations of the world are democratic according to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#By_regime_type https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#By_regime_ty.... And it continues the filter of seeing this as open society being an imposition. If you have a closed society & the open society of the internet doesn't fit your society, you shouldnt be on the internet. Your closed society doesn't want to participate, then fine, if it must: go elsewhere.
      - snapcaster 4y ago
        You've decided "Open society" == good. This is a value judgement not a law of nature. "if you have a closed society... you shouldn't be on the internet" Again, according to you. what lengths would you be willing to go to impose this on other people?
        andsoitis 4y ago
        In a more open society, members can choose for themselves, i.e. they have more autonomy. In a more closed society, more choice is taken away from you.
        rektide 4y ago
        I don't want anyone in a closed society and I'd go through great lengths to help people trapped in close societies have access to open connectivities like the internet. If a society wants to be closed though, your society has the onus of responsibility to enforce closing. Your society can't impose that position on everyone. Hence me saying the society probably shouldnt be on the most open connected free connectivity on the planet, one created by open society & which enables open social values. > You've decided... It looks like you have decided here friend. I never openly said that, although heck the words I use build a pretty lopsided case. I think everyone should decide for themselves though, and come to their conclusions. To me the choice seems obvious & it's hard to see what is to respect about closed, but I'm open. I'm open to learning.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  Do you think that the customs of China's tribe and island are the laws of nature? For that matter, in the era of nearlight communication around the planet, how important even are things like "island" anymore, and how is "tribe" defined?
  - snapcaster 4y ago
    No, i think the customs of chinas tribe and island should reign supreme in china and the customs of my tribe and island in mine
    - rektide 4y ago
      Should your tribe & China tribe have say over what every company online does? Should they have sway over what US companies do? Seems like you are saying no, that you seem to agree with the frustration shared by the article.
    - bacchusracine 4y ago
      >No, i think the customs of chinas tribe and island should reign supreme in china and the customs of my tribe and island in mine Isn't that the point? The problem is that the customs of others is infringing on the customs of others. If some places insist on a policy for their people, that is fine for their people. But what we have here is an insistence that those people can control how other people outside of their place and people can see and access technology.
- clouddrover 4y ago
  No, not the laws of Nature, just Better. And made better through centuries of hard work and sacrifice. It's what it takes.
  - snapcaster 4y ago
    I also agree they're better (probably coincidence that I was raised in a society and education system praising them nonstop). But to what lengths are you willing to go to impose them on people who don't want them? edit: If we're comparing china, i'm not sure you want to use length of time the society was built as a metric demonstrating chinese inferiority lol
    - clouddrover 4y ago
      It's pretty funny that you equate the oppressive actions of an authoritarian regime with what the people want. It's even funnier that you've failed to understand that the whole point of the article is that an authoritarian regime is imposing itself on others. You contradict yourself but convince yourself you're being rational. That's the problem with being an unprincipled apologist. You end up compromised.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    China has had, in terms of national continuity, a couple millenia more hard-work-and-sacrifice-time than the US, FWIW, if those qualities are inputs to being "better." It may not be wise to categorically dismiss the shared philosophy and cultural experience of billions of people. We Westerners have a philosophical concept inherited from our ancestors that describes that attitude: "hubris."
    - clouddrover 4y ago
      > China has had, in terms of national continuity, a couple millenia more hard-work-and-sacrifice-time Yes, and China ended up very far behind. China's progress has come through Westernization. China needs more of it. > It may not be wise to categorically dismiss the shared philosophy and cultural experience of billions of people. Billions more know better.
- acomjean 4y ago
  I becomes an issue in the global world and tolerance and intolerance... EG Danish cartooons of religious figures. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_carto...
  - snapcaster 4y ago
    So who should decide how this issue is handled? The Danish? product managers at facebook? techbros?
    - mhoad 4y ago
      We actually have already had this debate already and came to a whole bunch of conclusions on the topic https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...
      - gadders 4y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Liberty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Liberty
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      Definitely not the people who say that a non-believer of Islam cannot depict the prophet Muhammad. That's both a trample on my rights as an individual to do what I want, and a trampling of my rights to not participate in religion.
surgical_fire 4y ago
> Tough shit. China will just have to grow up. Turns out that they grew up and they don't really care about the same values that we do. Tough shit, indeed.
- rektide 4y ago
  The point of this article isnt to disagree with their insular close mindedness & lack of ability to process criticism or satire. The point is that because of economics we keep letting their conservative close minded views dictate what happens in the Western Democratic world. These conservative authoritarian approaches should have no quarter here, go against the values & rights the creators & owners of these sites arose from & should be supporting. It's a sad development & China should be the one having to eat tough shit.
  - surgical_fire 4y ago
    > The point is that because of economics Economics is all that matters in this world. It feels even silly to have to spell it out when we are on a website funded by the pinnacle of capitalism, where money overrides principles day and night. China will not have to eat any tough shit while the economics is on their side. And before you object, I ask you to consider the device you are using to reply to me. I know where mine came from.
    - Paianni 4y ago
      > I know where mine came from. I doubt it, the sources of materials and stages of manufacturing for most advanced electronics are spread all over the world. I know my motherboard was made in Taiwan, my processor from Malaysia/Germany, but that's just the start.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - clouddrover 4y ago
      > Economics is all that matters in this world. It isn't. Ukraine is a current demonstration of that.
yieldcrv 4y ago
at $8/month it is, to him a place with 1/3rd of the population has a hard on for one specific theoretical form of expression that they don't even use that much? easy ignore. Midjourney also retrains from all prompts free or paid, making it easier to get better results from simpler prompts. Access to that population of human nodes is definitely more important than placating some ideological position of a smaller group.
gadders 4y ago
Douglas Mackey got jailed in the US for political satire. The moral high ground of the US is eroding rapidly.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  Can you please explain which portion of his messages encouraging voters to "vote by SMS" constitute satire?
  - gadders 4y ago
    You seem unfamiliar as to how memes work. Have you never seen people post "Vote early, vote often"? It's the same as that.
    - shadowgovt 4y ago
      it turns out "it's just memes, bro" is a poor defense against Conspiracy Against Rights charges. > Have you never seen people post "Vote early, vote often"? It's the same as that. If you are aware of an instance of someone being convicted by a jury of their peers of Conspiracy Against Rights for sharing "vote early, vote often," be sure to let us know.
- myko 4y ago
  That is factually incorrect: https://www.politico.com/news/2023/03/31/far-right-influencer-convicted-in-voter-suppression-scheme-00090042 https://www.politico.com/news/2023/03/31/far-right-influence...
  - gadders 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - mdp2021 4y ago
      You are calling it a «meme», the judges recognized it as «fraudulent actions cross[ing] a line into criminality». The color does not count.
SN76477 4y ago
I've observed that integrity and honesty have no concern for satire or mockery.
drstewart 4y ago
>Tough shit. China will just have to grow up. Pretty funny reading the differences between this thread and the one from yesterday where Canada fined Google for not censoring information. In that one, people were all "Tough shit, Google has to follow the laws of countries they serve in! Not everyone is American, stupid Americans!" Turns out, countries will have laws you disapprove of too!
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  There is a difference between Canada requiring Google follow the laws in Canada while operating in Canada, and China requiring stuff be censored globally to operate in China. If you are unable to see that difference, that's on you.
  - drstewart 4y ago
    Follow the laws of countries you operate in. If you can't or won't, that's on you

snapcaster 4y ago

Why not? Do you think that the customs of your tribe and island are the laws of nature?

rektide 4y ago
First we're talking about open versus closed societies, not tribes. The repression of spirit closed societies impose on their members is a humanitarian concern, imperils the soul, eats away at becoming ourselves. Open society all the way. Society has to be allowed to consider itself. Second, this isn't laws of the land. It's the internet, the unplace where different places can meet & connect. Your suggestion proposes that it's the pro-speech folk forcing themselves upon the world. Not so. What's actually happening in this story is the small authoritarian lowest-common-denominators of the world are imposing their views on all interconnectivity, on everyone else. They are constraining everyone else. And tech bosses keep letting it happen, keep letting ourselves be bullied. And the governments of open societies are not stepping up to illuminate & push these issues as the threats to open society that they are. Two absurd inconsistencies. Human rights are amazing. The suppression of humanity is dreadful. That's the "tribe" you are defending.
- snapcaster 4y ago
  These are all your opinions and personal values. I agree with all of them on a personal level. Where I think we disagree is that this is some kind of "pro speech" vs. "anti speech" battle. I see it more as a global US led Imperium attempting to impose their opinions and personal values on people throughout the world regardless of what those citizens or governments think. I'm in the US, me and my countrypeople shouldn't get a say in what happens in Hong Kong. Just like China shouldn't get a say in what happens in the US. Why isn't that enough?
  - rektide 4y ago
    This is a atopical line of inquiry & ignores what is happening. It's an ad-hominem argument against the US. Open society is far more than the US. 43% of the nations of the world are democratic according to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#By_regime_type https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#By_regime_ty.... And it continues the filter of seeing this as open society being an imposition. If you have a closed society & the open society of the internet doesn't fit your society, you shouldnt be on the internet. Your closed society doesn't want to participate, then fine, if it must: go elsewhere.
    - snapcaster 4y ago
      You've decided "Open society" == good. This is a value judgement not a law of nature. "if you have a closed society... you shouldn't be on the internet" Again, according to you. what lengths would you be willing to go to impose this on other people?
      - andsoitis 4y ago
        In a more open society, members can choose for themselves, i.e. they have more autonomy. In a more closed society, more choice is taken away from you.
      - rektide 4y ago
        I don't want anyone in a closed society and I'd go through great lengths to help people trapped in close societies have access to open connectivities like the internet. If a society wants to be closed though, your society has the onus of responsibility to enforce closing. Your society can't impose that position on everyone. Hence me saying the society probably shouldnt be on the most open connected free connectivity on the planet, one created by open society & which enables open social values. > You've decided... It looks like you have decided here friend. I never openly said that, although heck the words I use build a pretty lopsided case. I think everyone should decide for themselves though, and come to their conclusions. To me the choice seems obvious & it's hard to see what is to respect about closed, but I'm open. I'm open to learning.
shadowgovt 4y ago
Do you think that the customs of China's tribe and island are the laws of nature? For that matter, in the era of nearlight communication around the planet, how important even are things like "island" anymore, and how is "tribe" defined?
- snapcaster 4y ago
  No, i think the customs of chinas tribe and island should reign supreme in china and the customs of my tribe and island in mine
  - rektide 4y ago
    Should your tribe & China tribe have say over what every company online does? Should they have sway over what US companies do? Seems like you are saying no, that you seem to agree with the frustration shared by the article.
  - bacchusracine 4y ago
    >No, i think the customs of chinas tribe and island should reign supreme in china and the customs of my tribe and island in mine Isn't that the point? The problem is that the customs of others is infringing on the customs of others. If some places insist on a policy for their people, that is fine for their people. But what we have here is an insistence that those people can control how other people outside of their place and people can see and access technology.
clouddrover 4y ago
No, not the laws of Nature, just Better. And made better through centuries of hard work and sacrifice. It's what it takes.
- snapcaster 4y ago
  I also agree they're better (probably coincidence that I was raised in a society and education system praising them nonstop). But to what lengths are you willing to go to impose them on people who don't want them? edit: If we're comparing china, i'm not sure you want to use length of time the society was built as a metric demonstrating chinese inferiority lol
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    It's pretty funny that you equate the oppressive actions of an authoritarian regime with what the people want. It's even funnier that you've failed to understand that the whole point of the article is that an authoritarian regime is imposing itself on others. You contradict yourself but convince yourself you're being rational. That's the problem with being an unprincipled apologist. You end up compromised.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  China has had, in terms of national continuity, a couple millenia more hard-work-and-sacrifice-time than the US, FWIW, if those qualities are inputs to being "better." It may not be wise to categorically dismiss the shared philosophy and cultural experience of billions of people. We Westerners have a philosophical concept inherited from our ancestors that describes that attitude: "hubris."
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    > China has had, in terms of national continuity, a couple millenia more hard-work-and-sacrifice-time Yes, and China ended up very far behind. China's progress has come through Westernization. China needs more of it. > It may not be wise to categorically dismiss the shared philosophy and cultural experience of billions of people. Billions more know better.
acomjean 4y ago
I becomes an issue in the global world and tolerance and intolerance... EG Danish cartooons of religious figures. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_carto...
- snapcaster 4y ago
  So who should decide how this issue is handled? The Danish? product managers at facebook? techbros?
  - mhoad 4y ago
    We actually have already had this debate already and came to a whole bunch of conclusions on the topic https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...
    - gadders 4y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Liberty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Liberty
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    Definitely not the people who say that a non-believer of Islam cannot depict the prophet Muhammad. That's both a trample on my rights as an individual to do what I want, and a trampling of my rights to not participate in religion.

surgical_fire 4y ago

> Tough shit. China will just have to grow up. Turns out that they grew up and they don't really care about the same values that we do. Tough shit, indeed.

rektide 4y ago
The point of this article isnt to disagree with their insular close mindedness & lack of ability to process criticism or satire. The point is that because of economics we keep letting their conservative close minded views dictate what happens in the Western Democratic world. These conservative authoritarian approaches should have no quarter here, go against the values & rights the creators & owners of these sites arose from & should be supporting. It's a sad development & China should be the one having to eat tough shit.
- surgical_fire 4y ago
  > The point is that because of economics Economics is all that matters in this world. It feels even silly to have to spell it out when we are on a website funded by the pinnacle of capitalism, where money overrides principles day and night. China will not have to eat any tough shit while the economics is on their side. And before you object, I ask you to consider the device you are using to reply to me. I know where mine came from.
  - Paianni 4y ago
    > I know where mine came from. I doubt it, the sources of materials and stages of manufacturing for most advanced electronics are spread all over the world. I know my motherboard was made in Taiwan, my processor from Malaysia/Germany, but that's just the start.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    > Economics is all that matters in this world. It isn't. Ukraine is a current demonstration of that.

yieldcrv 4y ago

at $8/month it is, to him a place with 1/3rd of the population has a hard on for one specific theoretical form of expression that they don't even use that much? easy ignore. Midjourney also retrains from all prompts free or paid, making it easier to get better results from simpler prompts. Access to that population of human nodes is definitely more important than placating some ideological position of a smaller group.

gadders 4y ago

Douglas Mackey got jailed in the US for political satire. The moral high ground of the US is eroding rapidly.

AlexandrB 4y ago
Can you please explain which portion of his messages encouraging voters to "vote by SMS" constitute satire?
- gadders 4y ago
  You seem unfamiliar as to how memes work. Have you never seen people post "Vote early, vote often"? It's the same as that.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    it turns out "it's just memes, bro" is a poor defense against Conspiracy Against Rights charges. > Have you never seen people post "Vote early, vote often"? It's the same as that. If you are aware of an instance of someone being convicted by a jury of their peers of Conspiracy Against Rights for sharing "vote early, vote often," be sure to let us know.
myko 4y ago
That is factually incorrect: https://www.politico.com/news/2023/03/31/far-right-influencer-convicted-in-voter-suppression-scheme-00090042 https://www.politico.com/news/2023/03/31/far-right-influence...
- gadders 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - mdp2021 4y ago
    You are calling it a «meme», the judges recognized it as «fraudulent actions cross[ing] a line into criminality». The color does not count.

SN76477 4y ago

I've observed that integrity and honesty have no concern for satire or mockery.

drstewart 4y ago

>Tough shit. China will just have to grow up. Pretty funny reading the differences between this thread and the one from yesterday where Canada fined Google for not censoring information. In that one, people were all "Tough shit, Google has to follow the laws of countries they serve in! Not everyone is American, stupid Americans!" Turns out, countries will have laws you disapprove of too!

mrguyorama 4y ago
There is a difference between Canada requiring Google follow the laws in Canada while operating in Canada, and China requiring stuff be censored globally to operate in China. If you are unable to see that difference, that's on you.
- drstewart 4y ago
  Follow the laws of countries you operate in. If you can't or won't, that's on you