3 ms·

Flanderization

40 points by jakelazaroff 4y ago

johnea 4y ago
Wow, this is entertainment? No wonder people are becoming more stupid...
FrontierPsych 4y ago
I read about an experiment where they had people draw a pencil. However, with each iteration, the next person to draw the pencil had to do it in a new way that was not done before. The first drawings were regular drawing of a pencil, but as time went on, you'd get pencils with purple lead instead of black lead, then circular pencils, until it just devolved into Jackson Pollock and beyond. The thing is that you have to try to try to change the character so it isn't a repeat of the week before, so over time, it all morphs out beyond all recognition. This is exactly what is happening in politics. Each new right and left news person has to go further to the right and left in order to differentiate themselves from the other guys, and it keeps going farther to extremes.
Yubzzzzz 4y ago
I feel like this happened to every single character in friends. At the start, they all had fairly well-rounded characters. By the end of it - Ross besomes insufferably pretentious - Joey gets stupider and sluttier - Monica gets more compulsivly clean - Phoebe stops getting plotlines and just says bizarre things The only character this doesn't seem to happen to is Rachel. She starts out as a naive barbie and she graduly matures into a career woman who makes her own decisions (she's also naive and barbie-ish but it no longer consumes all her lines). Reverse Flanders?
- viraptor 4y ago
  That's true, friends/Monica was the first that came to my mind. But then I started thinking about other friends-like shows and I'm surprised how much this does not affect HIMYM - there are some traits that become slightly more visible, but they're "real" and everyone seems actually aware of them. For example Joey gets stupid-slutty for cheap comedy, but Barney gets slightly more slutty and it's actually part of the story.
- caf 4y ago
  Yes, the Friends examples are in the "Live action TV" list linked from the page: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Flanderization/LiveActionTV https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Flanderization/LiveAc...
akiselev 4y ago
Flanderization has the honor of being one of the few TvTropes that has leaked into Wikipedia proper [1] and it's even credited! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanderization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanderization
phendrenad2 4y ago
I think this happens because show-writers are threading the personality of a character through successive generational sieves. A character who is known for traits X, Y, and Z may lose two of those traits as they go out of style with audiences, leaving the character one-dimensional.
- mitthrowaway2 4y ago
  Which of Ned Flanders' early-series characteristics went out of style with audiences?
- russellbeattie 4y ago
  I don't think it's the audience, it's the writers. The original show-writers usually don't last more than a couple seasons. This is why third seasons always suck. Each new generation of writers home in on specific traits to get scripts written, which naturally gets exaggerated every year as writers shuffle in and out. There are probably character summaries to get new writers up to speed which make this process even more explicit.
  - racktash 4y ago
    I feel this can sometimes happen even when the writers stay the same. Highly subjective opinion incoming! By season 3, the characters on the BBC show Sherlock had become caricatures of their season 1 selves. Though maybe it doesn't help that the characterisation was always a bit over the top anyway...
MisterBastahrd 4y ago
I sorta wonder why they didn't call this Kramdenization. Ralph Kramden of The Honeymooners was the original character on television who started out as a somewhat normal guy and ended up a caricature of himself. He basically started the tradition of males being complete morons in relationships in popular media. At least Archie Bunker sorta started out in end-stage Kramden and they were able to make the character infuriating and endearing at the same time. You could also make an argument for something called Urkelization, for when a bit character ends up taking over an entire show and it reforms itself around him.
- pimlottc 4y ago
  > You could also make an argument for something called Urkelization, for when a bit character ends up taking over an entire show and it reforms itself around him. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakoutCharacter https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakoutCharacte... Urkel's in there, but there are earlier precedents, in particular The Fonz from Happy Days.
  - MisterBastahrd 4y ago
    Yeah, forgot about The Fonz. Even so, Happy Days still revolved mainly around Richie Cunningham (Fonzie just happened to be around most of the time), whereas Family Matters was basically Urkel and the Winslows by the end.
- loganc2342 4y ago
  I think “Urkelization” is covered by the Breakout Character trope[1]: “What's a writer to do when a minor character that they created for a show suddenly becomes much more popular than the other members of the cast? Why, re-write them as a main character, of course! This is that character[…]other characters in the cast might be Demoted to Extra[2] due to their reduced roles and screentime[…]the popularity of the character has to have influenced the direction of the narrative and put them into a major role, or led to the creation of new content specifically for them.” I’d say there’s also shades of Spotlight-Stealing Squad[3]. [1] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakoutCharacter https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakoutCharacte... [2] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DemotedToExtra https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DemotedToExtra [3] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpotlightStealingSquad https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpotlightStealin...
petesergeant 4y ago
I hate that they did this to Runkle on Californication, who starts out as a quirky high-powered agent, and becomes a complete idio
dang 4y ago
Related: Flanderization - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32775119 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32775119 - Sept 2022 (131 comments) Flanderization - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25450878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25450878 - Dec 2020 (234 comments)
fsckboy 4y ago
I don't think this fits the definition of a trope. Whatever the reason for Flanderization, lazy or unimaginative scriptwriting, lazy acting, pandering to the lowest common denominator, fan service, etc., those things aren't tropes either. (And relying on tropes in storytelling is not a trope either. It's a requirement, it's how we and chatGPT process stories, though it can be done well or poorly)
m463 4y ago
I wonder if this happens to characters in our real life? Friends who you get to know, who gradually reveal things you only suspected as full fledged characteristics. (sort of like, your neighbor who seems frustrated finally comes out and says that he does in fact hate it when people are on his lawn)
mejutoco 4y ago
Lisa from the Simpsons also starts at a bit more similar to Bart, and quickly does to be a library mouse. Only the saxophone is retained.
_8j50 4y ago
Hmm... perhaps we are all living in a sitcom then?

40 points by jakelazaroff 4y ago

Wow, this is entertainment? No wonder people are becoming more stupid...

I read about an experiment where they had people draw a pencil. However, with each iteration, the next person to draw the pencil had to do it in a new way that was not done before. The first drawings were regular drawing of a pencil, but as time went on, you'd get pencils with purple lead instead of black lead, then circular pencils, until it just devolved into Jackson Pollock and beyond. The thing is that you have to try to try to change the character so it isn't a repeat of the week before, so over time, it all morphs out beyond all recognition. This is exactly what is happening in politics. Each new right and left news person has to go further to the right and left in order to differentiate themselves from the other guys, and it keeps going farther to extremes.

Yubzzzzz 4y ago

I feel like this happened to every single character in friends. At the start, they all had fairly well-rounded characters. By the end of it - Ross besomes insufferably pretentious - Joey gets stupider and sluttier - Monica gets more compulsivly clean - Phoebe stops getting plotlines and just says bizarre things The only character this doesn't seem to happen to is Rachel. She starts out as a naive barbie and she graduly matures into a career woman who makes her own decisions (she's also naive and barbie-ish but it no longer consumes all her lines). Reverse Flanders?

viraptor 4y ago
That's true, friends/Monica was the first that came to my mind. But then I started thinking about other friends-like shows and I'm surprised how much this does not affect HIMYM - there are some traits that become slightly more visible, but they're "real" and everyone seems actually aware of them. For example Joey gets stupid-slutty for cheap comedy, but Barney gets slightly more slutty and it's actually part of the story.
caf 4y ago
Yes, the Friends examples are in the "Live action TV" list linked from the page: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Flanderization/LiveActionTV https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Flanderization/LiveAc...

akiselev 4y ago

Flanderization has the honor of being one of the few TvTropes that has leaked into Wikipedia proper [1] and it's even credited! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanderization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flanderization

phendrenad2 4y ago

I think this happens because show-writers are threading the personality of a character through successive generational sieves. A character who is known for traits X, Y, and Z may lose two of those traits as they go out of style with audiences, leaving the character one-dimensional.

mitthrowaway2 4y ago
Which of Ned Flanders' early-series characteristics went out of style with audiences?
russellbeattie 4y ago
I don't think it's the audience, it's the writers. The original show-writers usually don't last more than a couple seasons. This is why third seasons always suck. Each new generation of writers home in on specific traits to get scripts written, which naturally gets exaggerated every year as writers shuffle in and out. There are probably character summaries to get new writers up to speed which make this process even more explicit.
- racktash 4y ago
  I feel this can sometimes happen even when the writers stay the same. Highly subjective opinion incoming! By season 3, the characters on the BBC show Sherlock had become caricatures of their season 1 selves. Though maybe it doesn't help that the characterisation was always a bit over the top anyway...

MisterBastahrd 4y ago

I sorta wonder why they didn't call this Kramdenization. Ralph Kramden of The Honeymooners was the original character on television who started out as a somewhat normal guy and ended up a caricature of himself. He basically started the tradition of males being complete morons in relationships in popular media. At least Archie Bunker sorta started out in end-stage Kramden and they were able to make the character infuriating and endearing at the same time. You could also make an argument for something called Urkelization, for when a bit character ends up taking over an entire show and it reforms itself around him.

pimlottc 4y ago
> You could also make an argument for something called Urkelization, for when a bit character ends up taking over an entire show and it reforms itself around him. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakoutCharacter https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakoutCharacte... Urkel's in there, but there are earlier precedents, in particular The Fonz from Happy Days.
- MisterBastahrd 4y ago
  Yeah, forgot about The Fonz. Even so, Happy Days still revolved mainly around Richie Cunningham (Fonzie just happened to be around most of the time), whereas Family Matters was basically Urkel and the Winslows by the end.
loganc2342 4y ago
I think “Urkelization” is covered by the Breakout Character trope[1]: “What's a writer to do when a minor character that they created for a show suddenly becomes much more popular than the other members of the cast? Why, re-write them as a main character, of course! This is that character[…]other characters in the cast might be Demoted to Extra[2] due to their reduced roles and screentime[…]the popularity of the character has to have influenced the direction of the narrative and put them into a major role, or led to the creation of new content specifically for them.” I’d say there’s also shades of Spotlight-Stealing Squad[3]. [1] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakoutCharacter https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakoutCharacte... [2] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DemotedToExtra https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DemotedToExtra [3] https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpotlightStealingSquad https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpotlightStealin...

petesergeant 4y ago

I hate that they did this to Runkle on Californication, who starts out as a quirky high-powered agent, and becomes a complete idio

dang 4y ago

Related: Flanderization - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32775119 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32775119 - Sept 2022 (131 comments) Flanderization - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25450878 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25450878 - Dec 2020 (234 comments)

fsckboy 4y ago

I don't think this fits the definition of a trope. Whatever the reason for Flanderization, lazy or unimaginative scriptwriting, lazy acting, pandering to the lowest common denominator, fan service, etc., those things aren't tropes either. (And relying on tropes in storytelling is not a trope either. It's a requirement, it's how we and chatGPT process stories, though it can be done well or poorly)

m463 4y ago

I wonder if this happens to characters in our real life? Friends who you get to know, who gradually reveal things you only suspected as full fledged characteristics. (sort of like, your neighbor who seems frustrated finally comes out and says that he does in fact hate it when people are on his lawn)

mejutoco 4y ago

Lisa from the Simpsons also starts at a bit more similar to Bart, and quickly does to be a library mouse. Only the saxophone is retained.

_8j50 4y ago

Hmm... perhaps we are all living in a sitcom then?