5 ms·

A contra-narrative to your point is that there exist a minority of people who hold very specific and very dogmatic views about gender. These people are pushing

A contra-narrative to your point is that there exist a minority of people who hold very specific and very dogmatic views about gender. These people are pushing their views through the education system (I do not know the extent of it, just that it exists), and seemingly without the consent of parents (i.e., social transitions without informing parents). While I deeply disagree and detest the use of the term "groomer", the people who are doing so, are doing so in reaction to this dogma. Mind you, this is not about sexual minorities, but about infringing on child-parent relationships. As far as I best know (I can be wrong), the dogma is largely unsubstantiated, and it is not majority accepted in most places around the world (look at the UK for instance). Mind you, this is not about trans or gay acceptance, but the rejection of the biological sex binary, the conflation of sex and gender, and the subversion of parent-teacher relationships in favour of this dogma. Furthermore, I don't think "groomer" is the modern newspeak. If anything, the dogma that the terrible term "groomer" was meant to counter has the support of countless of mainstream institutions, academic, political, medical, news establishments, etc. Unless you live in a pure conservative bubble of any sorts, the dogma is word, the dogma is the newspeak; for starters, painting actual bigots and people who have compassion for these minorities (but refuse to toe the line behind this dogma) with the same brush by calling them "would-be killers". As such, there is a middle ground to be found, a minority of extremists such as yourself just get in the way.

dtauzell 3y ago
The reaction became a chain reaction and now the details don't matter and the "dogma" could be anything. For example, singing the sone "Rainbowland" at an elementary school concert is now considered pushing some dogma of shaming on kids.
- rayiner 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - plorg 3y ago
    What about drag shows is inappropriate, for what ages, and what intervention would you consider reasonable to prevent the harm of children? Plenty of drag shows are designed to be family-friendly, and generally parents can just not bring their kids to things that they don't think are appropriate for them. In any case, the way you write about self expression (and the Matt Walsh-level unseriousness of describing drag shows as a mockery to trans women) suggest you're not really looking to find a common ground that would allow non-conformity in public.
    - JamesBarney 3y ago
      And parents should be able to choose to take their kids to a private family friendly drag show if they choose. But there is a big difference between that and putting one on at a public school or library.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - msla 3y ago
        > Drag shows involve violating social norms as a form of voluntary self expression. Such rejection of social norms should not be granted state sanction by hosting such events in public libraries. Mere assertion. Not an argument. The supposed arguments against drag queen story time are either unserious hand-wringing about supposed harms coming from drag, a form of art older than modern gender roles, or simple threats of violence. Neither are actual arguments, just argument-shaped word noises. > By contrast, trans people presenting consistent with their biological gender identity isn't a form of voluntary self expression, any more than it is for a cis person to do so. "Biological gender identity" is ill-defined here, to the extent I honestly don't know what you mean: Do you mean a trans woman, such as Blaire White, dressing and acting like a woman? The phrase "biological gender identity" seems to conflate the modern conception of sex (genitals, chromosomes to some extent, hormones) with the modern conception of gender (roles, presentation, identity) and I'm now confused.
        3y ago
  - freejazz 3y ago
    Conservatives are all for letting parents take their kids to churches where people play with snakes and speak in tongues, and you are actually pearl clutching over a man wearing a dress?
    - JamesBarney 3y ago
      And most liberals would be just as upset if a public school or library hosted one of those events.
      - mrguyorama 3y ago
        Fuck no. Schools have had literal bible studies hosted by a teacher or student for decades!
      - freejazz 3y ago
        A library less so, imo. Local libraries are community institutions and should be serving their communities. so if the community wants to have a drag night, I don't see the issue? no one is forced to go... I went to boy scouts at my library
    - CWuestefeld 3y ago
      Your whole chain of responses here running a motte and bailey on both sides. On the one hand, you're pretending that the most silly extremists on the right are central examples; while on the other hand, pretending that there exist no extremists on the left.
      - freejazz 3y ago
        Responding to an actual poster here isn't that. Also, who are the alleged extremists on the left? You are just revealing your personal disagreement with my positions.
        CWuestefeld 3y ago
        My mistake. None of the positions held by anyone on the left is extreme in the least.
  - digging 3y ago
    > But drag shows aren't appropriate for children, right? I mean, this is either an ill-informed or wildly hateful view. Many drag shows are appropriate for children. Many drag shows are not appropriate for children. We didn't criminalize TV writers when South Park contained adult humor. In fact, we started showing it all day long.
rayiner 3y ago
[flagged]
- nooron 3y ago
  The idea that drag shows mock trans women would surprise a lot of trans women drag performers. It’s not an unheard of position for trans women but it is not the norm.
  - dumpsterlid 3y ago
    [dead]
- freejazz 3y ago
  >What’s actually going on in Florida is an ideological debate about how to teach kids to think about sexuality and gender identity more generally. No it's not and that's a completely disingenuous reading of what is actually going on in Florida, which is clearly reactive politics and pearl-grasping over every single culture war issue because their governor is pushing these kinds of policies to gain nat'l political prominence. >That’s why these middle aged librarians have drag shows for kids. In a way drag shows are a mockery of trans women. That doesn’t matter to them, because for them the overriding principle is self expression. Lol, I see what's really going on with your post now.
freejazz 3y ago
> These people are pushing their views through the education system (I do not know the extent of it, just that it exists), and seemingly without the consent of parents (i.e., social transitions without informing parents). That's certainly a narrative one side sells. One does have to wonder though, how it is that this could be possible given the complete lack of power in society held by those individuals. Maybe it's a bit more hyped up than it really is.
msla 3y ago
> A contra-narrative to your point is that there exist a minority of people who hold very specific and very dogmatic views about gender. Yes. They're the ones who try to enforce their views at gunpoint. > These people are pushing their views through the education system (I do not know the extent of it, just that it exists), and seemingly without the consent of parents (i.e., social transitions without informing parents). You were going so well until the end, there. They don't enable social transition without parental consent, they insist upon genital inspections without parental consent. Looking at the genitals of pre-pubescent children isn't something which would interest me, but they seem quite keen on it. It isn't something I can condone, of course, and not something I can meet them halfway on. > While I deeply disagree and detest the use of the term "groomer", the people who are doing so, are doing so in reaction to this dogma. Insisting on access to the genitals of children is grooming behavior. Normalizing the idea that strangers get to poke around without consent is pure grooming. It's why I can't accept it.

dtauzell 3y ago

The reaction became a chain reaction and now the details don't matter and the "dogma" could be anything. For example, singing the sone "Rainbowland" at an elementary school concert is now considered pushing some dogma of shaming on kids.

rayiner 3y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- plorg 3y ago
  What about drag shows is inappropriate, for what ages, and what intervention would you consider reasonable to prevent the harm of children? Plenty of drag shows are designed to be family-friendly, and generally parents can just not bring their kids to things that they don't think are appropriate for them. In any case, the way you write about self expression (and the Matt Walsh-level unseriousness of describing drag shows as a mockery to trans women) suggest you're not really looking to find a common ground that would allow non-conformity in public.
  - JamesBarney 3y ago
    And parents should be able to choose to take their kids to a private family friendly drag show if they choose. But there is a big difference between that and putting one on at a public school or library.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - msla 3y ago
      > Drag shows involve violating social norms as a form of voluntary self expression. Such rejection of social norms should not be granted state sanction by hosting such events in public libraries. Mere assertion. Not an argument. The supposed arguments against drag queen story time are either unserious hand-wringing about supposed harms coming from drag, a form of art older than modern gender roles, or simple threats of violence. Neither are actual arguments, just argument-shaped word noises. > By contrast, trans people presenting consistent with their biological gender identity isn't a form of voluntary self expression, any more than it is for a cis person to do so. "Biological gender identity" is ill-defined here, to the extent I honestly don't know what you mean: Do you mean a trans woman, such as Blaire White, dressing and acting like a woman? The phrase "biological gender identity" seems to conflate the modern conception of sex (genitals, chromosomes to some extent, hormones) with the modern conception of gender (roles, presentation, identity) and I'm now confused.
      - 3y ago
- freejazz 3y ago
  Conservatives are all for letting parents take their kids to churches where people play with snakes and speak in tongues, and you are actually pearl clutching over a man wearing a dress?
  - JamesBarney 3y ago
    And most liberals would be just as upset if a public school or library hosted one of those events.
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      Fuck no. Schools have had literal bible studies hosted by a teacher or student for decades!
    - freejazz 3y ago
      A library less so, imo. Local libraries are community institutions and should be serving their communities. so if the community wants to have a drag night, I don't see the issue? no one is forced to go... I went to boy scouts at my library
  - CWuestefeld 3y ago
    Your whole chain of responses here running a motte and bailey on both sides. On the one hand, you're pretending that the most silly extremists on the right are central examples; while on the other hand, pretending that there exist no extremists on the left.
    - freejazz 3y ago
      Responding to an actual poster here isn't that. Also, who are the alleged extremists on the left? You are just revealing your personal disagreement with my positions.
      - CWuestefeld 3y ago
        My mistake. None of the positions held by anyone on the left is extreme in the least.
- digging 3y ago
  > But drag shows aren't appropriate for children, right? I mean, this is either an ill-informed or wildly hateful view. Many drag shows are appropriate for children. Many drag shows are not appropriate for children. We didn't criminalize TV writers when South Park contained adult humor. In fact, we started showing it all day long.

rayiner 3y ago

[flagged]

nooron 3y ago
The idea that drag shows mock trans women would surprise a lot of trans women drag performers. It’s not an unheard of position for trans women but it is not the norm.
- dumpsterlid 3y ago
  [dead]
freejazz 3y ago
>What’s actually going on in Florida is an ideological debate about how to teach kids to think about sexuality and gender identity more generally. No it's not and that's a completely disingenuous reading of what is actually going on in Florida, which is clearly reactive politics and pearl-grasping over every single culture war issue because their governor is pushing these kinds of policies to gain nat'l political prominence. >That’s why these middle aged librarians have drag shows for kids. In a way drag shows are a mockery of trans women. That doesn’t matter to them, because for them the overriding principle is self expression. Lol, I see what's really going on with your post now.

freejazz 3y ago

> These people are pushing their views through the education system (I do not know the extent of it, just that it exists), and seemingly without the consent of parents (i.e., social transitions without informing parents). That's certainly a narrative one side sells. One does have to wonder though, how it is that this could be possible given the complete lack of power in society held by those individuals. Maybe it's a bit more hyped up than it really is.

msla 3y ago

> A contra-narrative to your point is that there exist a minority of people who hold very specific and very dogmatic views about gender. Yes. They're the ones who try to enforce their views at gunpoint. > These people are pushing their views through the education system (I do not know the extent of it, just that it exists), and seemingly without the consent of parents (i.e., social transitions without informing parents). You were going so well until the end, there. They don't enable social transition without parental consent, they insist upon genital inspections without parental consent. Looking at the genitals of pre-pubescent children isn't something which would interest me, but they seem quite keen on it. It isn't something I can condone, of course, and not something I can meet them halfway on. > While I deeply disagree and detest the use of the term "groomer", the people who are doing so, are doing so in reaction to this dogma. Insisting on access to the genitals of children is grooming behavior. Normalizing the idea that strangers get to poke around without consent is pure grooming. It's why I can't accept it.