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> girls who spend more than 4 hours a day on social media have two to three times the rate of depression as girls who spend an hour or less. Not that it proves

> girls who spend more than 4 hours a day on social media have two to three times the rate of depression as girls who spend an hour or less. Not that it proves anything, but the converse argument, that depressed girls spend more time on social media or online in general, should also be examined. If the data could support this thesis to a similar degree, there is no conclusive statement about social media really inducing depression. It isn't just about effect size in my opinion but I don't see this problem answered. That said, it doesn't need to be depression, there are other venues for negative influences. I am always ready to yell at the cloud for that.

bigbacaloa 4y ago
The converse argument is far more plausible.
- amelius 4y ago
  It's still just guessing. Can we please go from "plausible" to "we studied this"?
  - caddemon 4y ago
    It's pretty hard to study beyond doubt though. You're not going to get much parental consent (or probably even institutional approval) to run a study where you require the experimental group of teenagers to spend 3+ hours a day on social media. And if the experimental group limits screentime, well I think parents of teens know how hard that can be to actually enforce across devices if the kid really wants to get on social media. You can't control what their peer groups are doing, and there are privacy limitations on what info you can even collect on specific phone activity from consenting adults, let alone teens. In general, for studies of difficult long term behavior adjustments you basically need cooperative participants that will be honest when they slipped up. Teens are a tough population for this.
    - whats_a_quasar 4y ago
      It has been studied, with ~46 studies using three sorts of approaches. Haidt's writeup is below. His conclusion is that the available evidence shows that social media causes mental health issues, not the other way around. Though you can look through the studies yourself if you'd like. https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/i/104255435/question-a-do-experiments-using-random-assignment-show-a-causal-effect-of-social-media-use-on-mental-health https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/i/104255435/question-a-do...
etrautmann 4y ago
Or the two are linked via feedback such that social media makes depression worse and both are causally linked. It doesn’t have to be a one-way relationship.
jostmey 4y ago
But that’s not the basis of his argument. His argument is based on the timing of when social media usage started. I mint argue 3-4 hours or social media use alone didn’t cause depression, but had to be combined with a causal factor
AnimalMuppet 4y ago
> I am always ready to yell at the cloud for that. Yell at the cloud? Nicely done.
- raxxorraxor 4y ago
  No, I am just German and this is a language disability.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    Well, in English it became a beautiful pun.
LapsangGuzzler 4y ago
Something has to be behind the seemingly coordinated rise in depression among children globally, that's the leading indicator he's using to assess the problem. His argument is that it can't be anything other than social media. You're making the case in the micro scale: what is one person's relationship with depression and social media, and he's arguing in the macro scale. Something has caused depression to spike in children worldwide. What could it be?
- kuschku 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - LapsangGuzzler 4y ago
    You are describing a commonly shared sentiment of today. This spike started nearly a decade ago, long before our current economic situation materialized. To your point, who largely gets to decide which news stories get aggregated and which don't? Who has an outsized influence in shaping people's realities? By many metrics, times are tough, but by many other metrics, we are living in prosperous times as well.
    - misnome 4y ago
      > long before our current economic situation materialized 2008 was 15 years ago
  - mafro 4y ago
    Not disagreeing with your statements, but the key question in the research is why did depression spike in children worldwide _after 2012_. At various points in my lifetime there have been reasons to be sad about the world - but what changed in 2012 that predominantly appears to affect teenage girls, and has been observed in several countries globally?
owisd 4y ago
If the converse were true it wouldn't explain the rise in depression.
somedude895 4y ago
The longitudinal factor is essential in this though. Teen mental health issues skyrocketed since 2012. That's really the whole point of his rebuttal of Proposition 1.
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  We are back to the rates of the 1980s. What caused mental issues to be so high back the ? In the long term it’s the 90s that seem like a strangely low level of issues.
caddemon 4y ago
I agree the research doesn't conclusively show direction, but in my experience so many psychiatry correlates are chicken/egg. Depressed people tend to get less physical activity because of their depression symptoms, but too little activity can be quite bad for one's mood. Lots of bad cycles with positive (in a dynamical systems sense) feedback connections.
whats_a_quasar 4y ago
It has been studied, with ~46 studies using three sorts of approaches. Haidt's writeup on causation. His conclusion is that the available evidence shows that social media causes mental health issues, not the other way around. Though you can look through the studies yourself if you'd like. https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/i/104255435/question-a-do-experiments-using-random-assignment-show-a-causal-effect-of-social-media-use-on-mental-health https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/i/104255435/question-a-do...

bigbacaloa 4y ago

The converse argument is far more plausible.

amelius 4y ago
It's still just guessing. Can we please go from "plausible" to "we studied this"?
- caddemon 4y ago
  It's pretty hard to study beyond doubt though. You're not going to get much parental consent (or probably even institutional approval) to run a study where you require the experimental group of teenagers to spend 3+ hours a day on social media. And if the experimental group limits screentime, well I think parents of teens know how hard that can be to actually enforce across devices if the kid really wants to get on social media. You can't control what their peer groups are doing, and there are privacy limitations on what info you can even collect on specific phone activity from consenting adults, let alone teens. In general, for studies of difficult long term behavior adjustments you basically need cooperative participants that will be honest when they slipped up. Teens are a tough population for this.
  - whats_a_quasar 4y ago
    It has been studied, with ~46 studies using three sorts of approaches. Haidt's writeup is below. His conclusion is that the available evidence shows that social media causes mental health issues, not the other way around. Though you can look through the studies yourself if you'd like. https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/i/104255435/question-a-do-experiments-using-random-assignment-show-a-causal-effect-of-social-media-use-on-mental-health https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/i/104255435/question-a-do...

etrautmann 4y ago

Or the two are linked via feedback such that social media makes depression worse and both are causally linked. It doesn’t have to be a one-way relationship.

jostmey 4y ago

But that’s not the basis of his argument. His argument is based on the timing of when social media usage started. I mint argue 3-4 hours or social media use alone didn’t cause depression, but had to be combined with a causal factor

AnimalMuppet 4y ago

> I am always ready to yell at the cloud for that. Yell at the cloud? Nicely done.

raxxorraxor 4y ago
No, I am just German and this is a language disability.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  Well, in English it became a beautiful pun.

LapsangGuzzler 4y ago

Something has to be behind the seemingly coordinated rise in depression among children globally, that's the leading indicator he's using to assess the problem. His argument is that it can't be anything other than social media. You're making the case in the micro scale: what is one person's relationship with depression and social media, and he's arguing in the macro scale. Something has caused depression to spike in children worldwide. What could it be?

kuschku 4y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- LapsangGuzzler 4y ago
  You are describing a commonly shared sentiment of today. This spike started nearly a decade ago, long before our current economic situation materialized. To your point, who largely gets to decide which news stories get aggregated and which don't? Who has an outsized influence in shaping people's realities? By many metrics, times are tough, but by many other metrics, we are living in prosperous times as well.
  - misnome 4y ago
    > long before our current economic situation materialized 2008 was 15 years ago
- mafro 4y ago
  Not disagreeing with your statements, but the key question in the research is why did depression spike in children worldwide _after 2012_. At various points in my lifetime there have been reasons to be sad about the world - but what changed in 2012 that predominantly appears to affect teenage girls, and has been observed in several countries globally?

owisd 4y ago

If the converse were true it wouldn't explain the rise in depression.

somedude895 4y ago

The longitudinal factor is essential in this though. Teen mental health issues skyrocketed since 2012. That's really the whole point of his rebuttal of Proposition 1.

zeroonetwothree 4y ago
We are back to the rates of the 1980s. What caused mental issues to be so high back the ? In the long term it’s the 90s that seem like a strangely low level of issues.

caddemon 4y ago

I agree the research doesn't conclusively show direction, but in my experience so many psychiatry correlates are chicken/egg. Depressed people tend to get less physical activity because of their depression symptoms, but too little activity can be quite bad for one's mood. Lots of bad cycles with positive (in a dynamical systems sense) feedback connections.

whats_a_quasar 4y ago

It has been studied, with ~46 studies using three sorts of approaches. Haidt's writeup on causation. His conclusion is that the available evidence shows that social media causes mental health issues, not the other way around. Though you can look through the studies yourself if you'd like. https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/i/104255435/question-a-do-experiments-using-random-assignment-show-a-causal-effect-of-social-media-use-on-mental-health https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/i/104255435/question-a-do...