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Broadband Consumer Labels
- tanseydavid 4y agoOk, can we also get Recommended Daily Allowances and a Nutrition-Pyramid for internet consumption? <only half-joking>
- robg 4y agoI’ve been surprised that these types of labels are not required more broadly, digital health is another that’s needed. That said the nutrition labeling has gotten a bit too complex imho. I suppose it’s easier to add than subtract, but seems easy to include an QR code to mandate links for more information.
- Arrath 4y agoI have to say, I like the concept. Especially the "This is an introductory deal that lasts for <time>" portion.
- pg938hkd 4y ago[dead]
- zdw 4y agoIt would be great if these were required to be made available in: * A machine-readable format, not just human readable * with a fixed schema * Precise units (ie, no MB vs MiB disambiguation required) * Reliability stats with historic information * Accurate maps related to speed, especially with tech like DSL that is distance dependent.
- SparkyMcUnicorn 4y agoHave you read the proposal[0]? Pretty sure all your points are addressed. [0] https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-22-86A1.pdf https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/FCC-22-86A1.pdf
- sircastor 4y agoI like that instead of listing maximum speeds (which is always provided with a disclaimer) the provider is listing typical speeds, which should give the consumer a more general sense of what to expect. I don’t love the “read our policy” lines, as it just continues the practice of hiding behind the complexity of legalese. This is good, but is mostly useful in a place where you have enough competition to compare providers. Otherwise it’s just a simplified listing of how terrible your limited options are.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y agoI think that we should be careful about "gamed" speed tests, like Ookla. I've learned that I should ignore whatever Ookla says, as the ISP optimizes for it. I've heard that the Google tests are pretty good, and I also just learned that fast.com is good, because it sits on Netflix's IP range, and ISPs can't game it, without also letting Netflix have full throttle.
- s3p 4y agoEven then, the speedtest result would be more accurate than some theoretical max speed ISPs estimate their customers to have.
- kiwijamo 4y agoNetflix tests usually go to the Netflix cache at your ISP's nearest POP. Usually I find the Netflix speeds at close to max speed for my connection as I'm in the same city as my ISP's Netflix cache. However other test sites show more realistic speeds to sites in other networks. Ookla/Speedtest gives you the option to select offshore servers which helps to identify issues with ISPs underprovionsing off shore bandwidth. I've had ISPs with excellent on net speeds but poor off net speeds so I'm generally more interested in off net speeds.
- eppp 4y agoBut we have nothing to do with offnet speeds. I am fine with people looking at them but there isnt anything I can do to help them if they have bad speeds to random offnet networks.
- Yoofie 4y agoWhat good is that high advertised speed if you can never get it during most of the day or peak times? We should skip the bullshit and only sustained minimum speeds should be allowed to be advertised. It would at least give the ISP the incentive to invest more their infrastructure.
- georgemcbay 4y agoAlso what's the point when significant portions of the US have de facto regional broadband monopolies? I mean clear labeling is always better than not, but if you have no actual options how much does it help? Where I live my choice for actual wired broadband is: Spectrum. That's it. My only other viable Internet option is 25 mbps DSL from AT&T. So if I don't like the service from Spectrum: tough luck. If I'm looking at the label before ordering Spectrum and don't like what I see: tough luck. And my situation isn't particularly rare.
- bradknowles 4y agoYup, welcome to my neighborhood in Austin. Literally two miles in any direction, and you've got at least three gigabit-class ISPs, but not here. Spectrum and AT&T DSL are it for "broadband" providers. And I checked, and no T-Mobile and Verizon do not provide 5G fixed wireless service in this neighborhood. That was going to be my backup. AT&T LTE is available here, but it's no faster than DSL and during times of high load, it's much worse than DSL. FML.
- kube-system 4y agoA lot of consumers are going to have two options for the first time soon due to 5G rollouts from T-Mobile, Verizon, and others. And maybe you can use that label to more easily convince your local politicians that they should be giving more companies access to the poles.
- hiatus 4y agoAre nutrition labels useful in food deserts?
- jtchang 4y agoWow -- something I didn't know I wanted but actually not too bad an idea. At least it is a starting point for conversation. Have to keep in mind that not everyone understands the technical lingo associated with shopping for broadband so it makes sense.
- lxe 4y agoGood. With "Xfinity 10G Network," the ISPs are really stretching that truth in advertisement law.
- ikiris 4y agoIts nice to have some pro regulation people in the FCC for a change. This was really needed.
- crazygringo 4y agoI really like this. But how is "typical download speed" determined? It seems extremely non-obvious, particularly since congestion occurs in different spots (e.g. at the block level or at the apartment building level?) at different times in different locations. In fact I wouldn't even know how to begin to define it. Is there some kind of methodology for this, either based on real-time monitoring, or else a theoretical calculation based on usage patterns and network topology?
- jjeaff 4y agoFrom what I can gather in one of the linked rule documents, they may not have written the specific rule for determining typical speed yet. It appears to have several comment suggestions and requests additional comment.
- Enginerrrd 4y agoHow about the average speed a user sees normalized by the amount of data for which they see that speed. This biases the result toward evening streaming, but that's typically what people care about anyway.
- crazygringo 4y agoBut how are you going to measure that, is my point. A single user can run a speed test at a given point in time, but you can't be running speed tests all the time. The concept of "the average speed a user sees" -- there isn't an obvious way to me for how an ISP could calculate that for even a single customer, let alone across the whole network. Which is why I'm curious if there are network experts who have ideas of how you could even define it in a way that is both relatively accurate and practical to implement.
- eppp 4y agoOur system can run random speed tests on segments of the fiber onts at various times and produce such reports.
- Enginerrrd 4y ago
- waynenilsen 4y agoThe latency part feels absurd on its face.
- kube-system 4y agoI don’t think it would be as long as there is a uniform way specified to measure it.
- stanleydrew 4y agoIn the first couple of months after the pandemic hit, a lot of friends and family were suddenly shopping for better internet and this would've been great to have. Even after explaining that upload bandwidth is pretty critical for good video calls, most people I was helping simply couldn't find the up bandwidth number in ISP service offers. You have to dig deep into the fine print currently unless service is symmetric.
- gabereiser 4y agoLOL, comparison shop... Many places are operated in complete monopolies. 1 cable provider. 1 DSL provider. Questionable cell coverage.
- kube-system 4y ago> 1 cable provider. 1 DSL provider. Questionable cell coverage. Someone with those options definitely should be comparing them based on their specs.
- akira2501 4y agoDo individual consumers honestly have enough choice in broadband at a single location that this would actually add value? It's been a while but last I checked "one ISP, two if you're super lucky" is the norm. To the extent that you do have options, how likely is it that the secondary player is the same size and playing level as the majority player? Does this benefit them or hurt them? I'm in a Top 50 market. You've got Fiber and DSL from AT&T, 5G from T-Mobile and Cable from Comcast. AT&T and Comcast have very uneven areas of coverage still and mostly don't overlap and 5G rollout started, but it's only available at a small fraction of addresses within the city. This would have almost no value for a residential consumer here.
- mdasen 4y agoEven if you only have one ISP, they often have multiple plans and it can be hard to compare them. Most cable companies won’t even tell you what their upload speeds are. It definitely still has value even if you only have one ISP.
- em-bee 4y agoeven if there is no choice wouldn't a clear label help the consumer recognize how bad the offer is compared to other areas, and thus create pressure to improve the service?
- kube-system 4y ago> I'm in a Top 50 market. You've got Fiber and DSL from AT&T, 5G from T-Mobile and Cable from Comcast. And probably viasat, hughesnet, and starlink. And mobile broadband plans from the three major carriers and probably a couple dozen MVNOs. But two is enough to compare. And if there’s only one option, it’s even more important that consumers are fairly informed.
- kortilla 4y agoYes, this is super valuable. You’re biased because your mental filter as a techie has already taken out all of the choices people actually have. You didn’t include geo sat, starlink, 4g tethering, microwave stuff, and whatever other WISP miscellaneous things each area has going on. To you they aren’t “high speed choices”, but that’s just because you’re picky. If someone just wants to be able watch Netflix there are many options. If someone just wants to email pictures and pay their bills, there are many different options there too. Getting this will give all of the non-power users a way to see what’s available and pick something when they don’t need 1gbps 20ms latency.
- jjeaff 4y agoThis is such a welcome requirement in my book. Especially the requirement to include upload speeds. One of the providers in my area (spectrum) never shows the upload speed anywhere on any main page. It is buried deep in very fine print with the terms and conditions.
- Karrot_Kream 4y agoI'm so excited that this report card will include latency. I've had so many family members ask me why their high download and upload speed connection was "so slow" when their latency to a Google PoP was quite high. Now I can point to that number and tell them "lower is better". Now I just wish they published jitter numbers as well.
- daveyjonezz 4y agoIn my opinion, a solid example of regulation / enforcement the government should be performing.
- saulrh 4y agoThe most important part of this, in my opinion, is an easily-missable detail at the bottom: every one of these labels will come with a unique identifier to a database of broadband plans, presumably one maintained by the FCC alongside the numbers on these labels. That's huge. The FCC will be using that to look at Internet access and fairness and everything related to broadband access. It's the equivalent of the hospital billing data but for Internet. Really looking forward to what broadband access numbers in the country really look like when there's a centralized database that you're not allowed to lie on.
- seanp2k2 4y agoSad that due to politicking we couldn't get Gigi Sohn in, so we get Eric J. Troutman instead: https://tcpaworld.com/2023/04/01/its-official-u-s-president-joe-biden-nominates-the-czar-for-vacant-fcc-commissioner-seat/ https://tcpaworld.com/2023/04/01/its-official-u-s-president-... More on Gigi Sohn: https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/14/23599075/gigi-sohn-fcc-net-neutrality-broadband-midterms-biden-white-house https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/14/23599075/gigi-sohn-fcc-ne... and https://www.theverge.com/23437518/biden-fcc-gigi-sohn-fox-news-comcast-senate-democrats-midterms-election https://www.theverge.com/23437518/biden-fcc-gigi-sohn-fox-ne...
- zamnos 4y agoLies, damn lies, and statistics. As long as the data is broken down by zip code, and not street-by-street, broadband competition and thus access will still be made up of lies large corporations tell the FCC. Where the FCC really needs teeth is to be able to hold those corporations to the advertised rates. If a speed test can't give the advertised maximum numbers, FCC fines should land on the companies advertising those rates.
- rbranson 4y agoIt is already broken down block-by-block. See https://broadbandmap.fcc.gov/home https://broadbandmap.fcc.gov/home
- FireBeyond 4y ago
- Mistletoe 4y agoI was just thinking this morning what a watershed moment it was when food got these. Bravo FCC, this is awesome news and a huge step forward in the junk food world of internet access.
- Damogran6 4y agoMy concern is the cap. Xfinity has one, it's 1Tb. I blow through double that each month due to WFH. I'm paying the extra fee to make the cap go away, but it's disingenuous to sell 'gig speeds' an retain that 1Tb cap. That means you can blow through that in a weekend Teenaged Boy LanParty. It's not the same animal, by any stretch of the term, but I remember all-you-could-eat Internet for $20 a month with my 52k modem.
- pyrelight 4y agoYeah, it's a little disappointing that they are being obtuse with some of the stats on the label. Data caps, overage fees and bandwidth throttling should definitely be highly visible.
- flutas 4y ago> Yeah, it's a little disappointing that they are being obtuse with some of the stats on the label. Data caps, overage fees and bandwidth throttling should definitely be highly visible. I agree about throttling, but data caps and overage fees are both on there, no? Right under the avg speeds it lists "Data included with monthly price" and the line below it is the overage amount in $/GB. Seems very straightforward to me.
- schemescape 4y agoThere's a section labeled "Data included with monthly price", with a line for "Charges for additional data usage". I agree with your point, but at least the information would be provided in a standard format.
- Night_Thastus 4y agoThis would be absolutely beautiful to see in practice. I can't wait to see how major ISPs would absolutely bend the heck out of the rules to make this somehow not a win for consumers.
- ropeladder 4y agoThis is good as far as it goes--I think better information can help consumers at the margins. But it's hard to imagine this will do much to actual induce competition in markets where there are only a few (or one) players and most consumers are sticky.
- encryptluks2 4y ago[dead]
- thallium205 4y agoI wish it included average uptime.
- eppp 4y agoUptime of what? The ont? The border router? A random route to somewhere?
- snvzz 4y agoSeems quite useless. For starters, the Internet is best effort, and thus download and upload speeds will depend on the whole path at a given moment, irrespective of how good the connection is. Also applies to latency. Information about what the link speed is, and how much bandwidth is guaranteed to be allocated to your link would be much more useful. There's also information on IP address allocation in IPv4 (fixed? dynamic? only a CGNAT?) or IPv6 (dynamic? CIDR size?), or whether you get an appropriate endpoint you can attach your router to, vs being locked into an ISP provided box (the FCC should probably do something about this). No information about SLAs either.
- eppp 4y agoThere are servers that are provisioned to do this for isp systems. Sure you are testing to some known set of servers but you cant expect max rate speed to the internet. It doesnt make any sense and an ISP shouldn't even be expected to. Link speed is what it is. On GPON your ONT links at 1.2gbps. No one cares about this information. We don't provision based on link speed. Unless you are paying for guaranteed bandwidth, you arent going to get guaranteed bandwidth. I monitor all of our pons and if they go over a certain percent utilization for a period of time we split them or move customers around. There are systems and reports to do all of this. The amount of customers that even know what IPv4 is is minuscule. You are using our ONT, there is no madness that would allow otherwise. I will give you a passthrough port if you need one. SLA on a residential connection for $90 a month? The SLA is as fast as we can get you back on during business hours.
- snvzz 4y agoYour comment fully illustrates why this information is necessary. Residential customers are being played for fools and taken advantage of. ISPs get paid, yet act without accountability. This has to change.
- eppp 4y agoResidential customers have no idea what you are even talking about. To an approximation of nearly zero. They don't know what 2.4ghz or 5ghz is or even what the different speeds mean. Have you ever worked in this space? I do this every day and I try to educate anyone that needs a little help, but at the end of the day they just want their TV to not buffer all the time for the most part. Most of our outages are caused by the end customer. We aren't playing them for fools and despite you thinking we are, we are providing a desperately needed service in an area that is unprofitable for most companies to serve.
- sour-taste 4y agoI like that it includes the explicit data caps. Seems to be missing information on slowdowns above a certain point which seems important in some cases. I'd love to see this for cellphones as well
- Taywee 4y agoNice, but useless when you only have one provider as a legitimate option where you live.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y agoWould like to see indicator that you can self-host "a typical range of server functionality" (or not).
- OGforces 4y ago[dead]
- mdmglr 4y ago> This Monthly Price [is/is not] an introductory rate. [if introductory rate is applicable, identify length of introductory period and the rate that will apply after introductory period concludes] This Monthly Price [does not require s1 a [x vear/x monthl contract. [only required if applicable; if so, provide link to terms of contract Absolutely not. The big bold text needs to be the real rate. I’m tired of having to read small text to understand the real rate. It will be much better for consumers if the big price is the real price. I’m tied of cable companies slinging $40/mo. Plans that are really $140/mo.
- RobLach 4y agoGood step