6 ms·

I understand that the terms are mostly unambiguous, but I always wonder how these get defined in edge cases. For example ferries, at least where I live, alterna

by drewrv 3y ago

I understand that the terms are mostly unambiguous, but I always wonder how these get defined in edge cases. For example ferries, at least where I live, alternate the direction of travel as they go back and forth. There isn't a fixed "bow" or "stern" from which to define port and starboard.

1123581321 3y ago
Those ferries should be switching the direction the crew faces (perhaps in a different structure on the other end of the boat) and turning on the appropriate lights so port and starboard are lit correctly. They should have two sets of colored lights to handle travel in both directions.
- xg15 3y ago
  Don't they have to swap the lights anyway if the ferry reverses direction? After all, the red/green indicators are primarily for showing which direction the ship is moving in.
  - 1123581321 3y ago
    If I understand you correctly, yes, exactly.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    With double ended ferries you're going to dock bow first because that's the direction all the cars pointed. If you got halfway through a crossing and they announced there's a problem at the destination (broken thruster, docks on fire, dragons, docks on fire because of dragons), you would have to turn the ship around 180º and go back to your origin with the same bow that you started the trip with so everyone could disembark. The only time you'd switch ship orientation mid-trip is if something broke such that one end of the ship was navigable and the other was not. At which point you'd either have to dock backward (maybe with a tug) or everyone would have to back off the ship.
    - cromulent 3y ago
      Cable/chain ferries would not be able to turn around of course, the drivers would have to deal with it.
      - hinkley 3y ago
        Are there any cabled ferries that go beyond line of sight?
        dmurray 3y ago
        Depends on the time of day and the weather.
        hinkley 3y ago
        Well I'm pretty sure you can see a dragon attack at night.
phire 3y ago
For bidirectional ferries, I assume they just pick a direction all the way back at design time and stick to it. The direction might not matter, but consistency does.
- Xylakant 3y ago
  I’m fairly confident that the “bow” in that case is always the direction of travel in this case and that starboard/port side change. The lighting scheme on ships indicates the starboard side with a green light and the port side with a red light. This allows ships to figure out which way another ship is heading - especially at night. If you can see the red light on the left and green on the right while facing the other ship it’s going away from you, if it’s reversed then it’s coming towards you. If you can only see green it’s going to your right, to your left if you can see red. Retaining that property is important for navigation, so starboard and port have to swap sides.
  - stonemetal12 3y ago
    Pretty much every boat with onboard motors are capable of reversing thrust. Do they all switch like that when traveling in reverse? (Serious question, not a boat person, never been on a boat that wasn't a ferry )
    - uoaei 3y ago
      No, but you've already decided a direction that the bow points when using the word "reverse".
    - jprete 3y ago
      I don’t think boats travel in reverse very often because it’s inefficient to do so. If the boat is going in reverse, it’s probably docking, maneuvering, or having problems. In any of those cases, the crew should be situationally aware enough, and the boat slow enough, that they don’t need color-coded lights to keep themselves from causing a collision.
    - KineticLensman 3y ago
dan-robertson 3y ago
This is a great question imo but I struggled to find anything very good. I found a forum post, https://www.sailnet.com/threads/double-ended-ferries-which-end-is-front.8301/ https://www.sailnet.com/threads/double-ended-ferries-which-e... and between the trolling it seems that fore/aft and port/starboard switch when the direction reverses, including eg navigation lights (red for port, green for starboard). And they tend to also have a one end and a two end or an A/B end, and those labels don’t change.
- nitwit005 3y ago
  I've seen the 1 and 2 labels on barges near me. I suspect they just don't use this terminology, unless it's to communicate with other vessels, and then it's presumably based on movement direction like you say.
- hinkley 3y ago
  Does that mean when you file a maintenance request they have to number everything on the ship since "aft 2nd floor" doesn't narrow things down much?
  - Etrnl_President 3y ago
    Spars and ribs (frame) are usually numbered, often based on distance, like interstate exits. "Ten sequential rivets debonded on aft starboard #273 spar" would then be a writeup.
taeric 3y ago
Ha! I thought of this in one of the down thread discussions. Very curious on any official answer here, and I'll have to pay attention to the lights on the ferry, next time I'm on it.
geephroh 3y ago
The Washington State ferry system uses double-ended vessels with a pilot house on each end with the crew swapping between them at each crossing. Whichever end the crew are at becomes the bow.[1] Funny -- I've ridden the ferries a lot and never really thought about it. 1. https://www.sailnet.com/threads/double-ended-ferries-which-end-is-front.8301/ https://www.sailnet.com/threads/double-ended-ferries-which-e...
- jes 3y ago
  Kirkland, WA resident here. There is signage on the boat that uniquely identifies the #1 end and the #2 end of the boat. Can be helpful in finding your way back to your vehicle if you drove onto the ferry instead of being a walk-on passenger.
gerdesj 3y ago
P and S are really defined by the direction of travel or what you decide they are. They are just conventions. The Torpoint ferry in Plymouth (Devon, UK) is on chains, so front and back, bow and stern etc is moot. I think we can simply redefine that sort of ferry as a fish and avoid any snags. That strategy seems to work for astronomy when trying to wrangle planet/dwarf planet/lump of stuff n that. (EDIT: speling)
- themaninthedark 3y ago
  Oh great, now we will have flying ferrys.... or perhaps swimming planes! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgweA8tlh8Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgweA8tlh8Q
  - gerdesj 3y ago
    Bee fish! What a delightful idea. We do seem to insist on the weird when we elect officials in democracy lands. On the bright side we do actually get to elect these odd balls rather than have them dropped into place from above. Back in the day, in England at least, otters were classified as fish too for the purpose of allowable nosh on a Friday for your discerning Catholic. Nowadays we munch on depleted cod stocks and chips. Yum! How on earth that became a thing in a country where it is impossible to get around 70 miles away from the sea beggars belief. There are also rather a lot of rivers hereabouts but we don't generally munch on freshwater fish here either - WTF?
twawaaay 3y ago
The thing to remember is that those directions are used for an awful number of things that have nothing to do with the ship moving. Like when you name places for storing things or various pieces of equipment. Changing those names would create a lot of mayhem. When I captain a boat it is more important for me to communicate things unequivocally. I need to be able to specify what I want to happen, precisely. The crew does not really need to concern themselves with the direction the boat is moving or what is the bigger plan. They just get orders to do specific tasks. Only I (or whoever is responsible for the boat at the moment) really need to understand the context of those tasks although ideally the crew would also understand why they are doing things so that they can anticipate further orders or signal when I make a mistake. Why this is important is because the plan may sometimes change and then my job is to put a new set of orders and I can't really start by explaining what the new changed plan is or getting any consent. I was never in a situation like that, but if I was captaining a boat that can change directions, I would still keep stable naming that does not change when the boat stops or changes directions.
- taeric 3y ago
  Though, as it turns out, double-ended craft are defined by the direction they are operating. I'm curious on other items that are defined in this way. Is does make sense that broad rules are lifted for obvious reasons. Is why I can name a few things where screw threading is reversed from what we typically use.
pbj1968 3y ago
But they are on a fixed route…

by drewrv 3y ago

1123581321 3y ago

Those ferries should be switching the direction the crew faces (perhaps in a different structure on the other end of the boat) and turning on the appropriate lights so port and starboard are lit correctly. They should have two sets of colored lights to handle travel in both directions.

xg15 3y ago
Don't they have to swap the lights anyway if the ferry reverses direction? After all, the red/green indicators are primarily for showing which direction the ship is moving in.
- 1123581321 3y ago
  If I understand you correctly, yes, exactly.
- hinkley 3y ago
  With double ended ferries you're going to dock bow first because that's the direction all the cars pointed. If you got halfway through a crossing and they announced there's a problem at the destination (broken thruster, docks on fire, dragons, docks on fire because of dragons), you would have to turn the ship around 180º and go back to your origin with the same bow that you started the trip with so everyone could disembark. The only time you'd switch ship orientation mid-trip is if something broke such that one end of the ship was navigable and the other was not. At which point you'd either have to dock backward (maybe with a tug) or everyone would have to back off the ship.
  - cromulent 3y ago
    Cable/chain ferries would not be able to turn around of course, the drivers would have to deal with it.
    - hinkley 3y ago
      Are there any cabled ferries that go beyond line of sight?
      - dmurray 3y ago
        Depends on the time of day and the weather.
        hinkley 3y ago
        Well I'm pretty sure you can see a dragon attack at night.

phire 3y ago

For bidirectional ferries, I assume they just pick a direction all the way back at design time and stick to it. The direction might not matter, but consistency does.

Xylakant 3y ago
I’m fairly confident that the “bow” in that case is always the direction of travel in this case and that starboard/port side change. The lighting scheme on ships indicates the starboard side with a green light and the port side with a red light. This allows ships to figure out which way another ship is heading - especially at night. If you can see the red light on the left and green on the right while facing the other ship it’s going away from you, if it’s reversed then it’s coming towards you. If you can only see green it’s going to your right, to your left if you can see red. Retaining that property is important for navigation, so starboard and port have to swap sides.
- stonemetal12 3y ago
  Pretty much every boat with onboard motors are capable of reversing thrust. Do they all switch like that when traveling in reverse? (Serious question, not a boat person, never been on a boat that wasn't a ferry )
  - uoaei 3y ago
    No, but you've already decided a direction that the bow points when using the word "reverse".
  - jprete 3y ago
    I don’t think boats travel in reverse very often because it’s inefficient to do so. If the boat is going in reverse, it’s probably docking, maneuvering, or having problems. In any of those cases, the crew should be situationally aware enough, and the boat slow enough, that they don’t need color-coded lights to keep themselves from causing a collision.
  - KineticLensman 3y ago

dan-robertson 3y ago

This is a great question imo but I struggled to find anything very good. I found a forum post, https://www.sailnet.com/threads/double-ended-ferries-which-end-is-front.8301/ https://www.sailnet.com/threads/double-ended-ferries-which-e... and between the trolling it seems that fore/aft and port/starboard switch when the direction reverses, including eg navigation lights (red for port, green for starboard). And they tend to also have a one end and a two end or an A/B end, and those labels don’t change.

nitwit005 3y ago
I've seen the 1 and 2 labels on barges near me. I suspect they just don't use this terminology, unless it's to communicate with other vessels, and then it's presumably based on movement direction like you say.
hinkley 3y ago
Does that mean when you file a maintenance request they have to number everything on the ship since "aft 2nd floor" doesn't narrow things down much?
- Etrnl_President 3y ago
  Spars and ribs (frame) are usually numbered, often based on distance, like interstate exits. "Ten sequential rivets debonded on aft starboard #273 spar" would then be a writeup.

taeric 3y ago

Ha! I thought of this in one of the down thread discussions. Very curious on any official answer here, and I'll have to pay attention to the lights on the ferry, next time I'm on it.

geephroh 3y ago

The Washington State ferry system uses double-ended vessels with a pilot house on each end with the crew swapping between them at each crossing. Whichever end the crew are at becomes the bow.[1] Funny -- I've ridden the ferries a lot and never really thought about it. 1. https://www.sailnet.com/threads/double-ended-ferries-which-end-is-front.8301/ https://www.sailnet.com/threads/double-ended-ferries-which-e...

jes 3y ago
Kirkland, WA resident here. There is signage on the boat that uniquely identifies the #1 end and the #2 end of the boat. Can be helpful in finding your way back to your vehicle if you drove onto the ferry instead of being a walk-on passenger.

gerdesj 3y ago

P and S are really defined by the direction of travel or what you decide they are. They are just conventions. The Torpoint ferry in Plymouth (Devon, UK) is on chains, so front and back, bow and stern etc is moot. I think we can simply redefine that sort of ferry as a fish and avoid any snags. That strategy seems to work for astronomy when trying to wrangle planet/dwarf planet/lump of stuff n that. (EDIT: speling)

themaninthedark 3y ago
Oh great, now we will have flying ferrys.... or perhaps swimming planes! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgweA8tlh8Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgweA8tlh8Q
- gerdesj 3y ago
  Bee fish! What a delightful idea. We do seem to insist on the weird when we elect officials in democracy lands. On the bright side we do actually get to elect these odd balls rather than have them dropped into place from above. Back in the day, in England at least, otters were classified as fish too for the purpose of allowable nosh on a Friday for your discerning Catholic. Nowadays we munch on depleted cod stocks and chips. Yum! How on earth that became a thing in a country where it is impossible to get around 70 miles away from the sea beggars belief. There are also rather a lot of rivers hereabouts but we don't generally munch on freshwater fish here either - WTF?

twawaaay 3y ago

The thing to remember is that those directions are used for an awful number of things that have nothing to do with the ship moving. Like when you name places for storing things or various pieces of equipment. Changing those names would create a lot of mayhem. When I captain a boat it is more important for me to communicate things unequivocally. I need to be able to specify what I want to happen, precisely. The crew does not really need to concern themselves with the direction the boat is moving or what is the bigger plan. They just get orders to do specific tasks. Only I (or whoever is responsible for the boat at the moment) really need to understand the context of those tasks although ideally the crew would also understand why they are doing things so that they can anticipate further orders or signal when I make a mistake. Why this is important is because the plan may sometimes change and then my job is to put a new set of orders and I can't really start by explaining what the new changed plan is or getting any consent. I was never in a situation like that, but if I was captaining a boat that can change directions, I would still keep stable naming that does not change when the boat stops or changes directions.

taeric 3y ago
Though, as it turns out, double-ended craft are defined by the direction they are operating. I'm curious on other items that are defined in this way. Is does make sense that broad rules are lifted for obvious reasons. Is why I can name a few things where screw threading is reversed from what we typically use.

pbj1968 3y ago

But they are on a fixed route…