4 ms·

> Would be nice if the Fox News crowd would read some of those messages to wake up from all the manipulation. For a lot of people facts don't matter, only cult

> Would be nice if the Fox News crowd would read some of those messages to wake up from all the manipulation. For a lot of people facts don't matter, only culture war. Its no different than sport fans loving their team despite them cheating e.g Astros, Patriots, Red Sox, etc. They just want their team to win.

JellyBeanThief 4y ago
> For a lot of people facts don't matter, only culture war. The thing is that that state of affairs has been deliberately cultivated. And this entire case is a penetrating glimpse into how it's done. There's a range of possible solutions, but they all center on what kind of speech we incentivize. Right now, we've pretty much gone all in on incentivizing speech that gets attention. Traditional media businesses produce news or entertainment in order to sell attention to advertisers for money. Social media just puts a twist on it by outsourcing content creation to individual users in exchange for internet points like upvotes or retweets. Things aren't going to get better until we change that. Facts and reasoned arguments are boring. Culture war is entertaining and engaging. So culture war makes the most money, and that's what we're going to get.
ithkuil 4y ago
I recently discovered Tim Urban's "The thinking ladder" * Think like a scientist * Think like a sports fan * Think like an attorney * Think like a zaelot According to his model, being a sports fan is not even close as bad as lower rungs of the ladder. Sport fans do root for their teams and do engage in all sort of tribalism but ultimately care about The Game and they would be deeply dissatisfied if the game ethics were breached in favour of any team, including their own; it would just ruin the whole point of the game. While the "attorney" persona deliberately ignores the truth or pretends to do so if that requires serving their clients. Only the true "zaelot" fully lives in their delusion and nothing, truly nothing will make them wake up from anything because waking up would mean losing themeselves.
- HDThoreaun 4y ago
  Except teams that cheat still have tons of fans.
  - kadoban 4y ago
    Sure, but the key is how they think about the cheating part. A sports fan will on average kind of vaguely deny it, but if real proof comes out it just becomes something they don't talk about or they'll pass blame around as much as possible. A lawyer will deny, deny, deny in every permutation of possible ways. A zealot will both deny and say the enemy deserved it and is worse.
    - lesuorac 4y ago
      I think the argument is that many sports fans are zealots. It's not like deflategate made anybody in new england like brady less.
      - ithkuil 4y ago
        Or perhaps some zealots are also sports fans and transfer their default behaviour onto anything they do
asdfman123 4y ago
That’s what propaganda will do: confuse the facts so much that the fact checkers get overwhelmed, so no one is sure what to think, thus replacing truth with power.
LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
I just want people to remember all the previous elections where Dems were potentially hurt by e-voting bugs and to band together across the aisle to get rid of voting machines. Paper voting works for us in Canada and it'd work for you too. The only voting machine that isn't "fraud waiting to happen" is an optical-scan under-voting detector - the thing that says "your mark for Mayor is too light and won't be counted", allowing you to take the paper and pen and correct it. The court erred in this case, not by treating Fox's words (/unchecked republication of accusations) as a lie but by acting like the reputation of an voting-machine company deserves protection when they make something so obviously ideally suited for crime. The Flipper Zero people get accused of knowing their product will be used in crime and yet we don't apply the same logic to e-voting manufacturers. Fox deserves the hit, but Dominion doesn't deserve the implication of honesty - their entire business is to remove proof of honesty from our elections. Perhaps the solution should have been to fine Fox but give the money to charities seeking to audit and improve the voting process.

JellyBeanThief 4y ago

> For a lot of people facts don't matter, only culture war. The thing is that that state of affairs has been deliberately cultivated. And this entire case is a penetrating glimpse into how it's done. There's a range of possible solutions, but they all center on what kind of speech we incentivize. Right now, we've pretty much gone all in on incentivizing speech that gets attention. Traditional media businesses produce news or entertainment in order to sell attention to advertisers for money. Social media just puts a twist on it by outsourcing content creation to individual users in exchange for internet points like upvotes or retweets. Things aren't going to get better until we change that. Facts and reasoned arguments are boring. Culture war is entertaining and engaging. So culture war makes the most money, and that's what we're going to get.

ithkuil 4y ago

I recently discovered Tim Urban's "The thinking ladder" * Think like a scientist * Think like a sports fan * Think like an attorney * Think like a zaelot According to his model, being a sports fan is not even close as bad as lower rungs of the ladder. Sport fans do root for their teams and do engage in all sort of tribalism but ultimately care about The Game and they would be deeply dissatisfied if the game ethics were breached in favour of any team, including their own; it would just ruin the whole point of the game. While the "attorney" persona deliberately ignores the truth or pretends to do so if that requires serving their clients. Only the true "zaelot" fully lives in their delusion and nothing, truly nothing will make them wake up from anything because waking up would mean losing themeselves.

HDThoreaun 4y ago
Except teams that cheat still have tons of fans.
- kadoban 4y ago
  Sure, but the key is how they think about the cheating part. A sports fan will on average kind of vaguely deny it, but if real proof comes out it just becomes something they don't talk about or they'll pass blame around as much as possible. A lawyer will deny, deny, deny in every permutation of possible ways. A zealot will both deny and say the enemy deserved it and is worse.
  - lesuorac 4y ago
    I think the argument is that many sports fans are zealots. It's not like deflategate made anybody in new england like brady less.
    - ithkuil 4y ago
      Or perhaps some zealots are also sports fans and transfer their default behaviour onto anything they do

asdfman123 4y ago

That’s what propaganda will do: confuse the facts so much that the fact checkers get overwhelmed, so no one is sure what to think, thus replacing truth with power.

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago

I just want people to remember all the previous elections where Dems were potentially hurt by e-voting bugs and to band together across the aisle to get rid of voting machines. Paper voting works for us in Canada and it'd work for you too. The only voting machine that isn't "fraud waiting to happen" is an optical-scan under-voting detector - the thing that says "your mark for Mayor is too light and won't be counted", allowing you to take the paper and pen and correct it. The court erred in this case, not by treating Fox's words (/unchecked republication of accusations) as a lie but by acting like the reputation of an voting-machine company deserves protection when they make something so obviously ideally suited for crime. The Flipper Zero people get accused of knowing their product will be used in crime and yet we don't apply the same logic to e-voting manufacturers. Fox deserves the hit, but Dominion doesn't deserve the implication of honesty - their entire business is to remove proof of honesty from our elections. Perhaps the solution should have been to fine Fox but give the money to charities seeking to audit and improve the voting process.