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Keeping the legacy Ariane 5 launch platform alive is fine. But Ariane 6 effort and funding should have been directed into a highest-priority ESA project to crea

by 0xDEF 4y ago

Keeping the legacy Ariane 5 launch platform alive is fine. But Ariane 6 effort and funding should have been directed into a highest-priority ESA project to create SpaceX-style reusable heavy-lift launch vehicles. Europe cannot let an increasingly unstable Elon Musk be the de facto gatekeeper to space. I know Ariane 6 development goes way back but it doesn't make sense to invest more in the development of single-use heavy-lift launch vehicle. Edit: The initial concept art for Ariane 7 suggests it is a SpaceX-style reusable rocket.

ren_engineer 4y ago
>Europe cannot let an increasingly unstable Elon Musk be the de facto gatekeeper to space. unstable according to who, the media who are mad at him over Twitter? I keep seeing people make claims like this but if he was such a lunatic it seems like Blue Origin, Lockheed/Boeing, or the entirety of Europe should be able to beat SpaceX pretty easy if it's being run by a lunatic or just wait for it to collapse. Occam's razor would be that Musk isn't really as crazy as his public persona
- croes 4y ago
  According to his Tweets. Occam's razor would be that the real work at SpaceX isn't done by Musk but it's engineers.
  - ren_engineer 4y ago
    and yet there are competitors with far bigger budgets who can't seem to poach those engineers doing the work. Or for some reason refuse to hire the engineers that are kicking their ass. So Musk is either a better manager(getting more done with equal talent) or better at finding talent that Boeing and Blue Origin reject. If Musk is actively impeding SpaceX, why can't these companies seem to beat him? SpaceX engineers should be jumping at the chance to take their knowledge to Boeing/Lockheed/Blue Origin/Europe and work for people who are better than Musk(according to the media)
    - kramerger 4y ago
      Hard for me to judge spacex, but I know Tesla is second to last in reliability (at place 27, only better than Lincoln). Let me quote from the report: "Model Y still has body hardware issues with the tailgate and door alignment, paint defects, and multiple other problems. The Model X and Model S have body hardware, climate system, and in-car electronics problems. All three models are well below average." Maybe, an unstable slave driver who just wasted 44B because he couldn't keep his mouth shut is not the best leader for anything that requires long term care??
      - mensetmanusman 4y ago
        There is an all electric Lincoln?
      - panick21_ 4y ago
        If you invoke a report, how about actually providing the report? Because I think this wasn't a report about reliability at all. Paint defects have nothing to do with reliability for example. If its the report I'm thinking about, the difference between Tesla and their competitors isn't actually all that great. Not to mention this report is already a few years on. Also, this report only evaluated Model Y from California, China, Berlin and Austin have better reputation for quality. Model Y is the most sold car in the world both by volume and revenue in Q1 2023. I don't know about you but if I can choose between some 'report' and being car that makes the most money of any car on the planet, I know what I would choice. Its a bit ridiculous to say 'haha you loser your 27 in some random report' and ignore that Tesla is both growing very fast an is highly profitable. Call me crazy but I thought those things were important. Musk really is the only person where people have to make up these ridiculous arguments to somehow justify that he is an insane madman, despite his companies being incredibly successful. > not the best leader for anything that requires long term care?? He is the longest serving CEO in the car and the space industry. He is literally known for having a long term view and both of his major companies have seen incredibly growth for 20+ years. Like 2 decades isn't long term enough for you? I get that people dislike Musk, he isn't very likeable, but some basic logic needs to be applied when criticizing.
  - raverbashing 4y ago
    I think most engineers at SpaceX are glad Musk is wasting his time with Twitter instead of at Starbase
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    This is such an strange line of argument. Nobody would ever use such an insane line of argument for anybody other then Musk. Of course in a company of 10k+ the real work is not done by the CEO. Like this is an absurd standard. But since when does company leadership not matter anymore? SpaceX has been consistently successful for 25 years and somehow the founder, CEO and chief engineer had nothing to do with it?
- jackmott42 4y ago
  I am not the media. I am not mad at him for buying twitter but mad at how horrible he was to it's employees and how he manages it now.. I am a person who bought a Tesla, and follows every SpaceX launch. A big fan! Until about 3 years ago when he started getting increasingly unhinged, or perhaps, no longer hiding that he has always been mean, petty, and often stupid outside the realm of newtonian mechanics. Free speech absolutionist! Then de-platforms NPR and reinstates misogynists, racists, and insurrectionists. ok.
  - mardifoufs 4y ago
    I'm confused, when has NPR been deplatformed?
- solarkraft 4y ago
  I'm neither the media nor am I mad at him.
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  Musk is an irresponsible chief executive. My understanding is that he's pretty hands-off with SpaceX; that might be why it's doing well.
  - Gud 4y ago
    Wouldn’t that signal competence? He has set up an amazing organization furthering his ultimate goal(colonizing space). Now he can waste his free time on Twitter, just like everybody else
    - denton-scratch 4y ago
      > He has set up an amazing organization I agree; he's chosen good people, and he's set an ethos. It's not just luck. But "wasting his time on Twitter" cost him $44Bn, and landed him with serious problems he can do without. People who control that much money don't discuss their financial plans on Twitter for lulz, because it's irresponsible.
  - panick21_ 4y ago
    This is just such nonsense. Musk is the literally the longest serving CEO in the car and space industry. And he is well known for being the opposite of hands-off. You can read interviews with lots of former engineers, journalist who cover SpaceX and pretty much every other source, Musk is incredibly hands on, he leads engineering meeting that can sometimes be 4h long going into the night. What is your source for this 'hands-off' attitude? Because its the opposite of what every source who actually works or observes SpaceX professionally. The reality is many people just hate Musk and feel the need to not just dislike him personal but try to discredit everything he has ever done. Giving credit to somebody who you personally dislike as a person is just not something many people are willing to accept.
mafribe 4y ago
Ariane 7 is due for launch in the 2030s ...
- panick21_ 4y ago
  Ariane 7 is not due for anything. Its just some agencies playing around with ideas. There is no real plan for Ariane 7 and no authorization for anything. Also, people need to understand that most of the Ariane 6 is just Ariane 5 ME. Lots of parts of the Ariane 6 had been in development long before the Ariane 6. The new upper stage engine took 20+ years to develop. It was very hard for ESA to even get funding for Ariane 6, many nations wanted to stick to Ariane 5 ME. It will be a long while until the authorize another 4 billion $ for a new rocket.

by 0xDEF 4y ago

ren_engineer 4y ago

>Europe cannot let an increasingly unstable Elon Musk be the de facto gatekeeper to space. unstable according to who, the media who are mad at him over Twitter? I keep seeing people make claims like this but if he was such a lunatic it seems like Blue Origin, Lockheed/Boeing, or the entirety of Europe should be able to beat SpaceX pretty easy if it's being run by a lunatic or just wait for it to collapse. Occam's razor would be that Musk isn't really as crazy as his public persona

croes 4y ago
According to his Tweets. Occam's razor would be that the real work at SpaceX isn't done by Musk but it's engineers.
- ren_engineer 4y ago
  and yet there are competitors with far bigger budgets who can't seem to poach those engineers doing the work. Or for some reason refuse to hire the engineers that are kicking their ass. So Musk is either a better manager(getting more done with equal talent) or better at finding talent that Boeing and Blue Origin reject. If Musk is actively impeding SpaceX, why can't these companies seem to beat him? SpaceX engineers should be jumping at the chance to take their knowledge to Boeing/Lockheed/Blue Origin/Europe and work for people who are better than Musk(according to the media)
  - kramerger 4y ago
    Hard for me to judge spacex, but I know Tesla is second to last in reliability (at place 27, only better than Lincoln). Let me quote from the report: "Model Y still has body hardware issues with the tailgate and door alignment, paint defects, and multiple other problems. The Model X and Model S have body hardware, climate system, and in-car electronics problems. All three models are well below average." Maybe, an unstable slave driver who just wasted 44B because he couldn't keep his mouth shut is not the best leader for anything that requires long term care??
    - mensetmanusman 4y ago
      There is an all electric Lincoln?
    - panick21_ 4y ago
      If you invoke a report, how about actually providing the report? Because I think this wasn't a report about reliability at all. Paint defects have nothing to do with reliability for example. If its the report I'm thinking about, the difference between Tesla and their competitors isn't actually all that great. Not to mention this report is already a few years on. Also, this report only evaluated Model Y from California, China, Berlin and Austin have better reputation for quality. Model Y is the most sold car in the world both by volume and revenue in Q1 2023. I don't know about you but if I can choose between some 'report' and being car that makes the most money of any car on the planet, I know what I would choice. Its a bit ridiculous to say 'haha you loser your 27 in some random report' and ignore that Tesla is both growing very fast an is highly profitable. Call me crazy but I thought those things were important. Musk really is the only person where people have to make up these ridiculous arguments to somehow justify that he is an insane madman, despite his companies being incredibly successful. > not the best leader for anything that requires long term care?? He is the longest serving CEO in the car and the space industry. He is literally known for having a long term view and both of his major companies have seen incredibly growth for 20+ years. Like 2 decades isn't long term enough for you? I get that people dislike Musk, he isn't very likeable, but some basic logic needs to be applied when criticizing.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  I think most engineers at SpaceX are glad Musk is wasting his time with Twitter instead of at Starbase
- panick21_ 4y ago
  This is such an strange line of argument. Nobody would ever use such an insane line of argument for anybody other then Musk. Of course in a company of 10k+ the real work is not done by the CEO. Like this is an absurd standard. But since when does company leadership not matter anymore? SpaceX has been consistently successful for 25 years and somehow the founder, CEO and chief engineer had nothing to do with it?
jackmott42 4y ago
I am not the media. I am not mad at him for buying twitter but mad at how horrible he was to it's employees and how he manages it now.. I am a person who bought a Tesla, and follows every SpaceX launch. A big fan! Until about 3 years ago when he started getting increasingly unhinged, or perhaps, no longer hiding that he has always been mean, petty, and often stupid outside the realm of newtonian mechanics. Free speech absolutionist! Then de-platforms NPR and reinstates misogynists, racists, and insurrectionists. ok.
- mardifoufs 4y ago
  I'm confused, when has NPR been deplatformed?
solarkraft 4y ago
I'm neither the media nor am I mad at him.
denton-scratch 4y ago
Musk is an irresponsible chief executive. My understanding is that he's pretty hands-off with SpaceX; that might be why it's doing well.
- Gud 4y ago
  Wouldn’t that signal competence? He has set up an amazing organization furthering his ultimate goal(colonizing space). Now he can waste his free time on Twitter, just like everybody else
  - denton-scratch 4y ago
    > He has set up an amazing organization I agree; he's chosen good people, and he's set an ethos. It's not just luck. But "wasting his time on Twitter" cost him $44Bn, and landed him with serious problems he can do without. People who control that much money don't discuss their financial plans on Twitter for lulz, because it's irresponsible.
- panick21_ 4y ago
  This is just such nonsense. Musk is the literally the longest serving CEO in the car and space industry. And he is well known for being the opposite of hands-off. You can read interviews with lots of former engineers, journalist who cover SpaceX and pretty much every other source, Musk is incredibly hands on, he leads engineering meeting that can sometimes be 4h long going into the night. What is your source for this 'hands-off' attitude? Because its the opposite of what every source who actually works or observes SpaceX professionally. The reality is many people just hate Musk and feel the need to not just dislike him personal but try to discredit everything he has ever done. Giving credit to somebody who you personally dislike as a person is just not something many people are willing to accept.

mafribe 4y ago

Ariane 7 is due for launch in the 2030s ...

panick21_ 4y ago
Ariane 7 is not due for anything. Its just some agencies playing around with ideas. There is no real plan for Ariane 7 and no authorization for anything. Also, people need to understand that most of the Ariane 6 is just Ariane 5 ME. Lots of parts of the Ariane 6 had been in development long before the Ariane 6. The new upper stage engine took 20+ years to develop. It was very hard for ESA to even get funding for Ariane 6, many nations wanted to stick to Ariane 5 ME. It will be a long while until the authorize another 4 billion $ for a new rocket.