3 ms·

> But simply put if a thing has value, people need to decide how to structure access to it. You can't get around having some entity that has the thing on its ba

> But simply put if a thing has value, people need to decide how to structure access to it. You can't get around having some entity that has the thing on its balance sheet, and that entity decides how to finance the maintenance of the thing. I mean, you can. The property system isn't the only way to structure access to rival goods; it's just the best way[1]. Of course, without an owner, the property is immediately subject to the tragedy of the commons which is almost always worse than even the worst landlords. --- 1. For most things. Some stuff is... weird. I don't know a lot about water rights, but I've heard that's one of the least good areas of property law. And some things (ocean dwelling fish for example) can't really be property in a meaningful way.

lordnacho 4y ago
Absolutely, I'm just saying this is what the rental company does in the modern economy. We have this world where we assign ownership to everything and let the owners decide what to do. Of course it could be different.
tivert 4y ago
> Of course, without an owner, the property is immediately subject to the tragedy of the commons which is almost always worse than even the worst landlords. IIRC, the "tragedy of the commons" is basically a fiction, at least when it comes to things like the example literal plot of common grazing land. People aren't the stupid, pathologically self-centered and antisocial agents simple economics often assumes they are. If they're in a community, they work out systems to prevent overgrazing. IMHO, "tragedy of the commons" only really happens when no community can form and no community coordination can happen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons#Critici...
- mc32 4y ago
  Fishing with overfishing and depletion of fish stock is an example of tragedy of the commons. Also it’s seen in BLM grazing lands when mismanaged by the BLM. It’s not a fiction.
  - tivert 4y ago
    > Fishing with overfishing and depletion of fish stock is an example of tragedy of the commons. Also it’s seen in BLM grazing lands when mismanaged by the BLM. It’s not a fiction. I don't disagree, but I think the "tragedy of the commons" is overstated to imply that commons are always a failure (ultimately as propaganda for private-property-is-the-only-solution). I think, if you have a stable community using the resource that can take responsibility for it, it will manage it to avoid the tragedy. If no community can form (e.g. fishing in international waters) or one is prevented from forming (e.g. by some authority like the BLM asserting responsibility but failing to take it), that's when you'll get the tragedy. A "building without an owner" is a case where I definitely could see a tragedy of the commons being avoided, so long as it has relatively stable set of tenants. It'd basically turn into a co-op.

lordnacho 4y ago

Absolutely, I'm just saying this is what the rental company does in the modern economy. We have this world where we assign ownership to everything and let the owners decide what to do. Of course it could be different.

tivert 4y ago

> Of course, without an owner, the property is immediately subject to the tragedy of the commons which is almost always worse than even the worst landlords. IIRC, the "tragedy of the commons" is basically a fiction, at least when it comes to things like the example literal plot of common grazing land. People aren't the stupid, pathologically self-centered and antisocial agents simple economics often assumes they are. If they're in a community, they work out systems to prevent overgrazing. IMHO, "tragedy of the commons" only really happens when no community can form and no community coordination can happen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons#Critici...

mc32 4y ago
Fishing with overfishing and depletion of fish stock is an example of tragedy of the commons. Also it’s seen in BLM grazing lands when mismanaged by the BLM. It’s not a fiction.
- tivert 4y ago
  > Fishing with overfishing and depletion of fish stock is an example of tragedy of the commons. Also it’s seen in BLM grazing lands when mismanaged by the BLM. It’s not a fiction. I don't disagree, but I think the "tragedy of the commons" is overstated to imply that commons are always a failure (ultimately as propaganda for private-property-is-the-only-solution). I think, if you have a stable community using the resource that can take responsibility for it, it will manage it to avoid the tragedy. If no community can form (e.g. fishing in international waters) or one is prevented from forming (e.g. by some authority like the BLM asserting responsibility but failing to take it), that's when you'll get the tragedy. A "building without an owner" is a case where I definitely could see a tragedy of the commons being avoided, so long as it has relatively stable set of tenants. It'd basically turn into a co-op.