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I live in another Bay Area city that recently imposed a ban on natural gas for all new construction, whether residential or commercial. In addition, the ban for
by ovidiup 3y ago
I live in another Bay Area city that recently imposed a ban on natural gas for all new construction, whether residential or commercial. In addition, the ban forces existing homeowners to install all electric appliances if the cumulative cost of remodels in a 3-year window is over $250,000.
I find this idea absolutely bonkers when our electric infrastructure is terrible. The aerial power lines are subject to trees or large branches falling over and causing large power outages. Just this winter we had 4 major power outages, lasting from few hours to multiple days. Not only my city, the whole Silicon Valley had no power! The place supposedly having the brightest minds, trillion dollar companies, and the most advanced technology in the world! Not only we didn't have electricity, we had no Internet and cellular phones either. Absolutely insane!
Yeah, I do have solar power and battery backup, but during the winter relying on them does not always work. Luckily I had enough solar and battery generated electricity to power my natural gas furnace so I can have my house heated. The fan on the furnace uses 700W when pushing air, far less than electric heaters that would kill my Tesla batteries in a few short hours.
Why would anyone rely on a single source of energy, especially one that's so unreliable? Until we fix the electric grid, we shouldn't force everybody to switch to it.
- emodendroket 3y agoIf we can't reliably deliver electricity why should I trust the ability to reliably deliver electricity _and_ natural gas? Many gas appliances still require electricity to operate anyway.
- ars 3y agoNatural gas is underground and virtually never has an outage. A stove needs no power to run - you can light it with a match. And those appliances that need some electricity to help the natural gas can run off of a battery, or a tiny generator.
- hindsightbias 3y agoLet’s see how old gas infrastructure looks after the big one. San Bruno bonfires for everyone.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- inferiorhuman 3y agoNatural gas is underground and virtually never has an outage. What? I mean the obvious response is to point out that time that PG&E used natural gas to blow up a San Bruno neighborhood. After the explosion we found out that PG&E actually had no idea how much they could pressurize their pipeline (and in fact they falsified records to cover this up). https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-pge-safety-investigation-20181214-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-pge-safety-investigat... Beyond that leaks happen all the time, and explosions happen from time to time. I'm just gonna throw it out there, PG&E turns off gas service when there's a leak… causing… you know… an outage. Oakland City Hall evacuated due to gas leak. 2014. https://w3.calema.ca.gov/mail/OperationsPortal.nsf/89f857187d56de8c882580ae0082bae6/090e2ea65328855188257d8200033c2b?OpenDocument https://w3.calema.ca.gov/mail/OperationsPortal.nsf/89f857187... Car crash causes Oakland gas leak. 2021. https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/08/14/oakland-street-evacuated-after-car-crash-caused-major-gas-leak/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/08/14/oakland-street-evacua... Oakland gas explosion. 2010. https://6abc.com/archive/7828878/ https://6abc.com/archive/7828878/ Gas leak, explosion. San Francisco, 2007. https://www.mercurynews.com/2007/02/07/gas-leak-causes-explosion-in-s-f/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2007/02/07/gas-leak-causes-explo... Natural gas power plant explosion in Hayward. 2021. https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/calpine-natural-gas-plant-explosion-complicates-calif-summer-grid-reliability-65379696 https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights... Gas explosion, three alarm fire. San Francisco. 2019 https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/san-francisco-gas-explosion-fire-inferno-evacuations/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/san-francisco-gas-... Gas explosion and fire. Daly City, 2023. https://abc7news.com/daly-city-gas-line-fire-evacuations-leak/12891914/ https://abc7news.com/daly-city-gas-line-fire-evacuations-lea... Gas leak, evacuations. Sausalito 2022. https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/fire-units-respond-to-natural-gas-leak-in-sausalito/ https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/fire-units-respond-to-na... Gas leak, evacuations. Antioch, 2023. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/gas-leak-in-antioch-leads-to-some-home-evacuations/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/gas-leak-in-antioc... Gas leak, evacuations. San Francisco, 2022. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/evacuations-shelter-in-place-due-to-water-main-break-gas-leak-on-union-street/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/evacuations-shelte... Gas leak, evacuations. Menlo Park, 2022. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/crash-menlo-park-shopping-center-gas-leak-evacuations/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/crash-menlo-park-s... Gas leak, evacuations. Corte Madera, 2022. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/corte-madera-gas-leak-evacuation-granada-drive-sonora-way-endeavor-drive/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/corte-madera-gas-l... Ruptured gas line, evacuations. San Francisco, 2022. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/ruptured-gas-line-in-san-franciscos-sunnyside-leads-to-evacuations/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/ruptured-gas-line-... Gas leak, shelter-in-place. Emeryville, 2022. https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/emeryville-gas-leak-6600-shellmound-street/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/emeryville-gas-lea... Gas leak, evacuations. Morgan Hill, 2021 https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/firefighters-at-scene-of-morgan-hill-gas-leak-some-evacuations-ordered/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/firefighters-at-sc... PG&E causes gas leak, evacuations. Daly City, 2012. https://www.mercurynews.com/2012/07/09/pge-worker-causes-leak-in-daly-city-neighbors-evacuated/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2012/07/09/pge-worker-causes-lea... Gas leak, evacuations. Daly City, 2019. https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/significant-gas-leak-prompts-evacuations-in-daly-city/2199716/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/significant-gas-leak-p... Gas leak. Daly City, 2017. https://patch.com/california/pacifica/gas-leak-fixed-nearby-daly-city https://patch.com/california/pacifica/gas-leak-fixed-nearby-... Gas leak. Foster City, 2015. https://www.kron4.com/news/vehicle-crash-causes-gas-leak-in-foster-city/1032807866/ https://www.kron4.com/news/vehicle-crash-causes-gas-leak-in-... Gas leak. San Francisco, 2016. https://www.kron4.com/news/crews-at-scene-of-gas-leak-in-san-francisco/ https://www.kron4.com/news/crews-at-scene-of-gas-leak-in-san...
- Ferret7446 3y agoGas is much simpler than electricity. Electricity relies on the entire grid and control infrastructure. It's not something that is simply "delivered" despite our everyday terminology. Every single device on the grid, input and output, must be synchronized/balanced, thus outages cannot be resolved by simply flipping an on switch.
- jjav 3y ago> If we can't reliably deliver electricity why should I trust the ability to reliably deliver electricity _and_ natural gas? To state the obvious, because if one or the other is out at least I have the other one. That said, while electricity outages are pretty common here (California, thanks PG&E), natural gas has never had any kind of outage or problem. So with gas I can still cook (gas range) when the electricity is out and I have hot water (gas water heater). I could even heat the house because the furnace fan doesn't require that much power so it can easily be powered by my small generator while all the heating BTUs come from the reliable natural gas line.
- bushbaba 3y agoTo be fair, the gas infrastructure is dated and aging up against its lifespan.
- Scoundreller 3y agoYeah, I have a $20 camp stove and $2 butane cans. And a bbq. And a stick stove if it comes to that. If one is worried about reliability, self-sufficiency is the way. My biggest worry isn’t cooking, it’s refrigeration.
- runarberg 3y ago[flagged]
- WangComputers 3y agoBuy a gasoline or diesel generator and get a transfer switch installed. California's banning fuel powered generators in 2028 so do it while you can.
- grey-area 3y agoSolar panels and a big battery would be a better choice.
- el_benhameen 3y agoI absolutely agree that in the long term they’re a much better option. But my drag-around gas generator cost 500 bucks, while my solar system was $22k and I got quoted $18k for a single battery.
- Dalewyn 3y agoIf we're talking long-term, the generator will easily outlast the solar panel and/or battery if you maintain it properly (which is honestly very trivial as upkeep goes).
- WangComputers 3y agoHe already has a battery, a Honda EU2200i to supplement it during blackouts would only be $1,200. Outrageously cheap compared to installing a 2nd home battery.
- thehappypm 3y agoYou can probably buy a brand new generator every single time you need it for cheaper than a big battery
- claytongulick 3y agoOr... Leave California? I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk, but it's really hard for me to understand why anyone would want to live like that. The government there is just so... intrusive. I lived in SoCal for six years in the 90s and absolutely loved it. But now? I've lived all over the country, and experienced a lot of different state governments and local cultures. I just don't think I could tolerate living in a state with that much regulation. Does it ever bother you?
- Karrot_Kream 3y agoPartner and I are getting rid of our gas stove this year for induction. We're already running on induction on a small burner for most daily cooking, but when we do a large meal or cook for guests we need several burners. But my partner is from a culture that does Wok cooking and I'm from a culture that loves cooking different breads on grills. Our solution has been to use an Iwatani butane burner. It's already more efficient than the terrible stove that came with our house and it's small enough that I prefer grilling breads on it. Bonus: we got hit by a 24 hour power outage in one of the storms and cooked solely using the Iwatani burner.
- Ferret7446 3y ago> It's already more efficient than the terrible stove. How are you calculating that? I highly doubt the total net environmental impact of butane canisters (including shipping and packaging) is lower than piped gas.
- Karrot_Kream 3y agoThe net impact is definitely more than piped gas. I'm just saying it works as a backup.
- specialist 3y agoA new option is an induction stove with its own battery. It can run a fridge too. Basically a power wall appliance, with a stove on top. "Induction stoves with batteries built in, and why they matter. A conversation with Sam Calisch of Channing Street Copper Company and Wyatt Merrill of DOE." [Dec 2022] https://www.volts.wtf/p/induction-stoves-with-batteries-built https://www.volts.wtf/p/induction-stoves-with-batteries-buil... These types of appliances will quickly become the norm.
- rsync 3y agoLet’s say you have a 5BR house … it has been 2-3 years since I surveyed the options but at the time, tankless water heaters that were electric maxed out at something like 6gpm ? As opposed to a fairly standard 12gpm for a gas unit. So … you’d have to either take a major step backwards and use a tank heater… or … maybe duplex two units in parallel… FWIW, I looked into this because I wanted to use an electric option but it’s just not practical.
- Karrot_Kream 3y agoHeat pump water heaters are what you're looking for. They're still tanked so don't need as much instantaneous power to heat a large body of water which also makes them amenable to batteries as a backup. As a bonus, in California water heaters are often installed in garages for townhomes and detached houses and the heat pump will end up cooling the surrounding space which tends to be a benefit during the summers and isn't a big problem through our generally mild winters.