5 ms·

I think it's a pretty clear-cut view forward from the turkish position: deny Sweden's ascension to NATO unless they give up all PKK members, which should be fea

by sebow 3y ago

I think it's a pretty clear-cut view forward from the turkish position: deny Sweden's ascension to NATO unless they give up all PKK members, which should be feasible since they (only) recently declared it to be the terrorist organization it is. It's really shameful that they did not do this until recently, so Turkey denying them previously is not surprising and actually understandable. What i want to add is that this position is gonna be taken by turkey regardless of whether Erdogan wins the next elections, which i'm very doubtful of ( remember he campaigned on earthquake preventions, which given recent events will hurt him politically). Sweden will do what i've mentioned because they cannot afford not to.

mrtksn 3y ago
What's not clear-cut tho is "who is a PKK member", because you know, terrorist organisations don't have very well organised membership program and an audit. In Turkey, anyone can be a terrorist. There's even this legal concept of "aiding terrorist organisation without being member of it" and aid can be something simple as writing article which support their cause and the "supporting their cause" definition often can be very broad too because you might be accused of supporting a terrorist organisation due to something like advocating for the right of learning the mother thong in schools. You can easily go to jail for supporting something like that if the Kurdish political movement demands it too(terrorists want it, if you want it too then you are helping the terrorists). All the issues arise due to the difference of terror definitions between Turkey and more liberal countries. In Sweden you can march with the poster of Abdullah Ocalan, the founder of the terrorist organisation and in Turkey you might be accused of supporting terrorist if you say Mr. Ocalan by mistake(you are expected to parrot something like "baby killer" or at least "head terrorist"). Another problem with the Turkish stance is that it's inconsistent. This terrorist organisation is not formed in a vacuum, it is a response to oppression on the Kurds by the Turkish state and the politicians can dial down the terrorist accusation and talk about "Making mothers stop crying and discussing the issues and finding a violence-free solution" if it fits their current political position. 10 Years ago Erdogan was the champion of the Kurdish rights(the original oppressors are the secular nationalists, in an attempt of nation building. They oppressed islamist too, so at that time Erdogan was a freedom fighter) and was on a brink of Good Friday like resolution on the issue when fractions of the opposition said that he was a traitor and terror supporter. Today the roles are completely reversed, Erdogan is the hardcore nationalist and the opposition wants a resolution and dialog on the Kurdish issues and the PKK associated but pacifist political movement supports the opposition, which is probably why Erdogan is against "Sweden joining NATO unless gives us the PKK terrorists". The elections are in less than a month, Sweden will most likely join NATO once they are no longer useful to the Erdogan's propaganda or the opposition wins the elections. I hope Sweden never bows to the Turkish demands because that would mean reducing the Swedish freedoms of speech to Turkish level and I promise you, the Turkish freedom of speech sucks.
- nashashmi 3y ago
  Same thing in America. Terrorist label is the backdoor op to dictatorship.
  - lokar 3y ago
    Nonsense. In turkey saying the Kurds should have an independent state, via peaceful means makes you a terrorist. In the US you can openly campaign for illegal succession and it’s fine as long as you don’t t start engaging in overt acts.
    - nashashmi 3y ago
      There is a clause that prohibits you from conspiring to bringing the union down. Kurds were prevented from having a state by the brits who made wholly sure that it would never happen (revenge against salahudin ayubi).
e12e 3y ago
You can be a terrorist and a refugee if you would be subject to an unfair trial, torture or death penalty on return.
actionfromafar 3y ago
Sweden is still ruled by law. The cabinet can't just order a random list of who-ever Erdogan wants this week to be extradited to Turkey. You have to rip up constitutional laws to do such flagrant violations of human and citizen rights, and for that you need 2 really hard core fascist parliament majorities in succession. Not gonna happen.
- notlukesky 3y ago
  This is a myth. Sweden violates its own laws and has kidnapped people and sent them to torture chambers in what is called extraordinary renditions. Swedes openly acknowledge this. Their rules apply selectively as is the case all over the world. Just some believe in the smokescreen. https://www.hrw.org/news/2006/11/09/sweden-violated-torture-ban-cia-rendition https://www.hrw.org/news/2006/11/09/sweden-violated-torture-...
  - nitrammm 3y ago
    That's really not productive reasoning and it seems like a bit of an extremist viewpoint. With your line of reasoning there are no countries where law is applied because in all countries there has been occurrences where law was broken. This is typically not how "rule of law" is interpreted - as an on/off switch for an entire country and for all time. If we take Agiza as an example, he was illegaly extradited from Sweden. When it was discovered, there was somewhat of an outrage, he was given money for damages (much by Swedish standards) and later granted residency. So yes, Swedish government f-ked up at that occasion. That obviously does not mean that because of that, Swedish courts will now forever auto-accept any requests from turkey to have people extradited despite no proof of crimes. That's not what rule of law means. In fact, you can see proof of this today - Swedish courts are mostly rejecting requests from Turkey and the people still wlka free in Sweden.
nitrammm 3y ago
> since they (only) recently declared it to be the terrorist organization it is. PKK has been classified as a terrorist organization in Sweden since 1984. It was the second country to classify it as a terrorist organization, only after Turkey. Your comment makes no sense.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- kmonsen 3y ago
  Wasn't it even rumored for a while that PKK shot the prime minister Olof Palme in retaliation? That being said I think Sweden has been a bit weak on Kurdish terrorist supporters recently. Most (at least Scandinavian) left wing parties have a soft spot for leftish terrorists. I can see why, they are usually oppressed underdogs.
  - dmix 3y ago
    It also helps that PKK are ostensibly fighting a series of authoritarian govs combined with the fact westerners are shielded by the natural disconnection and "othering" of the consequences of political violence happening to citizens in a far-off country they have no personal connection to. It makes it easier to not care they've killed hundreds of civilians, heavily recruited child soldiers, etc when you can more easily focus on the group being founded by a political-prisoner who flirts with trendy radical academia-friendly economics. Plenty of normal people are victim to this sort of flirting with ideas rather than confronting the reality on the ground. You see the same sort of thing with people who (or at least used to) defend Russia for being tough, when in IRL it was mostly a persuasive sheen on top of a cheap mafia state.
  - notlukesky 3y ago
    The PKK terrorists inflict bombs and child rapes and kidnappings outside the white world. Hence the “tolerance”. A report by the UN of their child kidnappings and rapes in Syria, Iraq and southern Turkey: https://menaaffairs.com/un-report-again-reveals-ypg-pkk-terror-groups-recruitment-of-children/ https://menaaffairs.com/un-report-again-reveals-ypg-pkk-terr...
causality0 3y ago
If someone declared my language illegal and my people fictional I'd become a terrorist too.
- notlukesky 3y ago
  Where is that? And which language and where? Sorani? Kurmanji?
  - causality0 3y ago
    Turkey. Both Kurmanji and Sorani were banned in public use From 1982 to 1991. Using either still carries dangers. Distributing pamphlets in Kurdish can get you accused of aiding the PKK.

by sebow 3y ago

mrtksn 3y ago

What's not clear-cut tho is "who is a PKK member", because you know, terrorist organisations don't have very well organised membership program and an audit. In Turkey, anyone can be a terrorist. There's even this legal concept of "aiding terrorist organisation without being member of it" and aid can be something simple as writing article which support their cause and the "supporting their cause" definition often can be very broad too because you might be accused of supporting a terrorist organisation due to something like advocating for the right of learning the mother thong in schools. You can easily go to jail for supporting something like that if the Kurdish political movement demands it too(terrorists want it, if you want it too then you are helping the terrorists). All the issues arise due to the difference of terror definitions between Turkey and more liberal countries. In Sweden you can march with the poster of Abdullah Ocalan, the founder of the terrorist organisation and in Turkey you might be accused of supporting terrorist if you say Mr. Ocalan by mistake(you are expected to parrot something like "baby killer" or at least "head terrorist"). Another problem with the Turkish stance is that it's inconsistent. This terrorist organisation is not formed in a vacuum, it is a response to oppression on the Kurds by the Turkish state and the politicians can dial down the terrorist accusation and talk about "Making mothers stop crying and discussing the issues and finding a violence-free solution" if it fits their current political position. 10 Years ago Erdogan was the champion of the Kurdish rights(the original oppressors are the secular nationalists, in an attempt of nation building. They oppressed islamist too, so at that time Erdogan was a freedom fighter) and was on a brink of Good Friday like resolution on the issue when fractions of the opposition said that he was a traitor and terror supporter. Today the roles are completely reversed, Erdogan is the hardcore nationalist and the opposition wants a resolution and dialog on the Kurdish issues and the PKK associated but pacifist political movement supports the opposition, which is probably why Erdogan is against "Sweden joining NATO unless gives us the PKK terrorists". The elections are in less than a month, Sweden will most likely join NATO once they are no longer useful to the Erdogan's propaganda or the opposition wins the elections. I hope Sweden never bows to the Turkish demands because that would mean reducing the Swedish freedoms of speech to Turkish level and I promise you, the Turkish freedom of speech sucks.

nashashmi 3y ago
Same thing in America. Terrorist label is the backdoor op to dictatorship.
- lokar 3y ago
  Nonsense. In turkey saying the Kurds should have an independent state, via peaceful means makes you a terrorist. In the US you can openly campaign for illegal succession and it’s fine as long as you don’t t start engaging in overt acts.
  - nashashmi 3y ago
    There is a clause that prohibits you from conspiring to bringing the union down. Kurds were prevented from having a state by the brits who made wholly sure that it would never happen (revenge against salahudin ayubi).

e12e 3y ago

You can be a terrorist and a refugee if you would be subject to an unfair trial, torture or death penalty on return.

actionfromafar 3y ago

Sweden is still ruled by law. The cabinet can't just order a random list of who-ever Erdogan wants this week to be extradited to Turkey. You have to rip up constitutional laws to do such flagrant violations of human and citizen rights, and for that you need 2 really hard core fascist parliament majorities in succession. Not gonna happen.

notlukesky 3y ago
This is a myth. Sweden violates its own laws and has kidnapped people and sent them to torture chambers in what is called extraordinary renditions. Swedes openly acknowledge this. Their rules apply selectively as is the case all over the world. Just some believe in the smokescreen. https://www.hrw.org/news/2006/11/09/sweden-violated-torture-ban-cia-rendition https://www.hrw.org/news/2006/11/09/sweden-violated-torture-...
- nitrammm 3y ago
  That's really not productive reasoning and it seems like a bit of an extremist viewpoint. With your line of reasoning there are no countries where law is applied because in all countries there has been occurrences where law was broken. This is typically not how "rule of law" is interpreted - as an on/off switch for an entire country and for all time. If we take Agiza as an example, he was illegaly extradited from Sweden. When it was discovered, there was somewhat of an outrage, he was given money for damages (much by Swedish standards) and later granted residency. So yes, Swedish government f-ked up at that occasion. That obviously does not mean that because of that, Swedish courts will now forever auto-accept any requests from turkey to have people extradited despite no proof of crimes. That's not what rule of law means. In fact, you can see proof of this today - Swedish courts are mostly rejecting requests from Turkey and the people still wlka free in Sweden.

nitrammm 3y ago

> since they (only) recently declared it to be the terrorist organization it is. PKK has been classified as a terrorist organization in Sweden since 1984. It was the second country to classify it as a terrorist organization, only after Turkey. Your comment makes no sense.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
kmonsen 3y ago
Wasn't it even rumored for a while that PKK shot the prime minister Olof Palme in retaliation? That being said I think Sweden has been a bit weak on Kurdish terrorist supporters recently. Most (at least Scandinavian) left wing parties have a soft spot for leftish terrorists. I can see why, they are usually oppressed underdogs.
- dmix 3y ago
  It also helps that PKK are ostensibly fighting a series of authoritarian govs combined with the fact westerners are shielded by the natural disconnection and "othering" of the consequences of political violence happening to citizens in a far-off country they have no personal connection to. It makes it easier to not care they've killed hundreds of civilians, heavily recruited child soldiers, etc when you can more easily focus on the group being founded by a political-prisoner who flirts with trendy radical academia-friendly economics. Plenty of normal people are victim to this sort of flirting with ideas rather than confronting the reality on the ground. You see the same sort of thing with people who (or at least used to) defend Russia for being tough, when in IRL it was mostly a persuasive sheen on top of a cheap mafia state.
- notlukesky 3y ago
  The PKK terrorists inflict bombs and child rapes and kidnappings outside the white world. Hence the “tolerance”. A report by the UN of their child kidnappings and rapes in Syria, Iraq and southern Turkey: https://menaaffairs.com/un-report-again-reveals-ypg-pkk-terror-groups-recruitment-of-children/ https://menaaffairs.com/un-report-again-reveals-ypg-pkk-terr...

causality0 3y ago

If someone declared my language illegal and my people fictional I'd become a terrorist too.

notlukesky 3y ago
Where is that? And which language and where? Sorani? Kurmanji?
- causality0 3y ago
  Turkey. Both Kurmanji and Sorani were banned in public use From 1982 to 1991. Using either still carries dangers. Distributing pamphlets in Kurdish can get you accused of aiding the PKK.