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> I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words Taking words on a page and reading them out loud is a fundamental aspect of reading. The way you've w

> I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words Taking words on a page and reading them out loud is a fundamental aspect of reading. The way you've written it here, you were not fully able to read until the fifth grade. That is ... problematic. From my perspective, the problem is this. Phonetic reading naturally encompasses whole word reading, because a child who starts reading with phonics, eventually reads 'the whole word' (I don't think any adult spends any amount of time examining the minutiae of letter ordering in everyday life). However, the opposite does not work. As you pointed out, despite your high reading level, you weren't able to figure out basic phonetic rules until high school. This would be problematic if you were learning any new language for example. Even ones not based on latin alphabet. The practice of blending sounds together is a fundamental part of reading. A child who is using phonics is able to (1) understand, (2) sound out, (3) and speak the written word (which means they will be able to do things like read poetry). A child who is using the whole word approach may be able to understand, but if they cannot enunciate properly the words on the page, then they cannot do either 2 or 3, which means the reading is not complete. I don't see how we can consider this an acceptable replacement. > I read really fast, I can glance at a word and read it long before any sort of inner voice could catch up and mentally pronounce it. This is not exceptional for an adult.

camgunz 4y ago
>> I was well into middle school before I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words, but by 5th grade I was reading at a college level. > The way you've written it here, you were not fully able to read until the fifth grade. That is ... problematic. I don't really think that's what they're saying here. They wrote "by 5th grade I was reading at a college level". They have the classic "I read a lot so I read words I don't know how to pronounce" issue. That's different than "not fully able to read". >> I read really fast, I can glance at a word and read it long before any sort of inner voice could catch up and mentally pronounce it. > This is not exceptional for an adult. Sadly, I think that it is. I looked up US literacy rates for this thread to validate my memory that they were something like 98%. I learned that not only are they 92% at "level 1", but only "[f]our in five U.S. adults (79 percent) have English literacy skills sufficient to complete tasks that require comparing and contrasting information, paraphrasing, or making low-level inferences" [0]. I know this isn't exactly directly responsive to reading speed or whatever, but this is just to say I had a much rosier picture of US literacy in my head and maybe you do too. [0]: https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2019/2019179/index.asp https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2019/2019179/index.asp
- com2kid 4y ago
  > They have the classic "I read a lot so I read words I don't know how to pronounce" issue. I read a lot of fantasy literature as a kid, and I'll argue that not needing to bother with pronunciation is a huge boon when trying to go through a particular style of fantasy novel!
  - anon291 4y ago
    This is not the gotcha you think it is. Once a child masters reading to themselves silently, phonics or not, the ability to read fantasy novels is immediate. I'm curious how you see a teacher even evaluating a whole word based approach. If the child is unable to enunciate the word they're reading, all you can say is that the child claims to read the word and understand it.
com2kid 4y ago
> This would be problematic if you were learning any new language for example. But it is a benefit when it comes to technical papers, chemical names, and foreign loan words. > This is not exceptional for an adult. Really? I've met plenty of functioning adults who say they sound out words in their head when reading. Go to any one of the many online threads about reading methods and you'll come across plenty of people describing that they have a voice in their head pronouncing each word that they read.
- anon291 4y ago
  > But it is a benefit when it comes to technical papers, chemical names, and foreign loan words. Realistically, if I read technical papers and see a word I don't need to pronounce, I just refer to it in my mind as whatever it's written as. I learned phonics as a kid, yet have no trouble simply ignoring the pronunciation. Yet... since I do know phonics, I could pronounce the word, which is a strict superset of abilities compared to the whole word method. Which is my point... Phonics is strictly superior. There is nothing a whole word approach can do that a phonics student cannot, but there are things a phonics user can do a whole worder cannot.
  - camgunz 4y ago
    It's strictly superior from a "can you pronounce words" standpoint, but not necessarily in terms of a "long-term reader" standpoint. As another "whole words" person who pronounced the 'b' in 'subtle' until he was in like 5th/6th grade, I can tell you I was reading and comprehending things that my peers in the "gifted" program were not and could not, and that continued... probably to the present day but definitely through my school age years. And there's evidence that the focus on phonics essentially kills a love of reading and has a deleterious effect on long-term reading skills [0]. [0]: https://bera-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/rev3.3314 https://bera-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.10...
- pitaj 4y ago
  > you'll come across plenty of people describing that they have a voice in their head pronouncing each word that they read. That's not the same thing as sounding out words. It's just the internal monologue. Some people may choose to sound out a word they've never encountered before to have an idea of what it sounds like, but that's optional.

camgunz 4y ago

>> I was well into middle school before I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words, but by 5th grade I was reading at a college level. > The way you've written it here, you were not fully able to read until the fifth grade. That is ... problematic. I don't really think that's what they're saying here. They wrote "by 5th grade I was reading at a college level". They have the classic "I read a lot so I read words I don't know how to pronounce" issue. That's different than "not fully able to read". >> I read really fast, I can glance at a word and read it long before any sort of inner voice could catch up and mentally pronounce it. > This is not exceptional for an adult. Sadly, I think that it is. I looked up US literacy rates for this thread to validate my memory that they were something like 98%. I learned that not only are they 92% at "level 1", but only "[f]our in five U.S. adults (79 percent) have English literacy skills sufficient to complete tasks that require comparing and contrasting information, paraphrasing, or making low-level inferences" [0]. I know this isn't exactly directly responsive to reading speed or whatever, but this is just to say I had a much rosier picture of US literacy in my head and maybe you do too. [0]: https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2019/2019179/index.asp https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2019/2019179/index.asp

com2kid 4y ago
> They have the classic "I read a lot so I read words I don't know how to pronounce" issue. I read a lot of fantasy literature as a kid, and I'll argue that not needing to bother with pronunciation is a huge boon when trying to go through a particular style of fantasy novel!
- anon291 4y ago
  This is not the gotcha you think it is. Once a child masters reading to themselves silently, phonics or not, the ability to read fantasy novels is immediate. I'm curious how you see a teacher even evaluating a whole word based approach. If the child is unable to enunciate the word they're reading, all you can say is that the child claims to read the word and understand it.

com2kid 4y ago

> This would be problematic if you were learning any new language for example. But it is a benefit when it comes to technical papers, chemical names, and foreign loan words. > This is not exceptional for an adult. Really? I've met plenty of functioning adults who say they sound out words in their head when reading. Go to any one of the many online threads about reading methods and you'll come across plenty of people describing that they have a voice in their head pronouncing each word that they read.

anon291 4y ago
> But it is a benefit when it comes to technical papers, chemical names, and foreign loan words. Realistically, if I read technical papers and see a word I don't need to pronounce, I just refer to it in my mind as whatever it's written as. I learned phonics as a kid, yet have no trouble simply ignoring the pronunciation. Yet... since I do know phonics, I could pronounce the word, which is a strict superset of abilities compared to the whole word method. Which is my point... Phonics is strictly superior. There is nothing a whole word approach can do that a phonics student cannot, but there are things a phonics user can do a whole worder cannot.
- camgunz 4y ago
  It's strictly superior from a "can you pronounce words" standpoint, but not necessarily in terms of a "long-term reader" standpoint. As another "whole words" person who pronounced the 'b' in 'subtle' until he was in like 5th/6th grade, I can tell you I was reading and comprehending things that my peers in the "gifted" program were not and could not, and that continued... probably to the present day but definitely through my school age years. And there's evidence that the focus on phonics essentially kills a love of reading and has a deleterious effect on long-term reading skills [0]. [0]: https://bera-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/rev3.3314 https://bera-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.10...
pitaj 4y ago
> you'll come across plenty of people describing that they have a voice in their head pronouncing each word that they read. That's not the same thing as sounding out words. It's just the internal monologue. Some people may choose to sound out a word they've never encountered before to have an idea of what it sounds like, but that's optional.