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This is one of those topics that people debate endlessly because what works "for most" does not work "for all". I learned full word reading, it works great for

This is one of those topics that people debate endlessly because what works "for most" does not work "for all". I learned full word reading, it works great for me. I was well into middle school before I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words, but by 5th grade I was reading at a college level. Pretty sure I didn't internalize "e at the end makes vowels long" until nearly high school. I read really fast, I can glance at a word and read it long before any sort of inner voice could catch up and mentally pronounce it. I've met plenty of other people who are the same, but I will also acknowledge that this doesn't work for everyone. But you know what? I bet a lot of chemists "read" chemical names the same way.

pitaj 4y ago
Full word reading works fine for a subset of kids, but it leaves a sizeable amount behind. Phonics is fundamental for teaching those kids how to read. This is how the podcast explains what reading research has found about how people learn to read: - First learn to associate letters with sounds - By sounding out words, reinforce those associations - And associate combinations of letters with known words from their spoken language Our brains aren't wired for written language like they are for spoken language. We have to actively learn. And by associating letters with sounds, our brains are able to loop in the existing language areas of the brain into written language.
anon291 4y ago
> I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words Taking words on a page and reading them out loud is a fundamental aspect of reading. The way you've written it here, you were not fully able to read until the fifth grade. That is ... problematic. From my perspective, the problem is this. Phonetic reading naturally encompasses whole word reading, because a child who starts reading with phonics, eventually reads 'the whole word' (I don't think any adult spends any amount of time examining the minutiae of letter ordering in everyday life). However, the opposite does not work. As you pointed out, despite your high reading level, you weren't able to figure out basic phonetic rules until high school. This would be problematic if you were learning any new language for example. Even ones not based on latin alphabet. The practice of blending sounds together is a fundamental part of reading. A child who is using phonics is able to (1) understand, (2) sound out, (3) and speak the written word (which means they will be able to do things like read poetry). A child who is using the whole word approach may be able to understand, but if they cannot enunciate properly the words on the page, then they cannot do either 2 or 3, which means the reading is not complete. I don't see how we can consider this an acceptable replacement. > I read really fast, I can glance at a word and read it long before any sort of inner voice could catch up and mentally pronounce it. This is not exceptional for an adult.
- camgunz 4y ago
  >> I was well into middle school before I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words, but by 5th grade I was reading at a college level. > The way you've written it here, you were not fully able to read until the fifth grade. That is ... problematic. I don't really think that's what they're saying here. They wrote "by 5th grade I was reading at a college level". They have the classic "I read a lot so I read words I don't know how to pronounce" issue. That's different than "not fully able to read". >> I read really fast, I can glance at a word and read it long before any sort of inner voice could catch up and mentally pronounce it. > This is not exceptional for an adult. Sadly, I think that it is. I looked up US literacy rates for this thread to validate my memory that they were something like 98%. I learned that not only are they 92% at "level 1", but only "[f]our in five U.S. adults (79 percent) have English literacy skills sufficient to complete tasks that require comparing and contrasting information, paraphrasing, or making low-level inferences" [0]. I know this isn't exactly directly responsive to reading speed or whatever, but this is just to say I had a much rosier picture of US literacy in my head and maybe you do too. [0]: https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2019/2019179/index.asp https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2019/2019179/index.asp
  - com2kid 4y ago
    > They have the classic "I read a lot so I read words I don't know how to pronounce" issue. I read a lot of fantasy literature as a kid, and I'll argue that not needing to bother with pronunciation is a huge boon when trying to go through a particular style of fantasy novel!
    - anon291 4y ago
      This is not the gotcha you think it is. Once a child masters reading to themselves silently, phonics or not, the ability to read fantasy novels is immediate. I'm curious how you see a teacher even evaluating a whole word based approach. If the child is unable to enunciate the word they're reading, all you can say is that the child claims to read the word and understand it.
- com2kid 4y ago

pitaj 4y ago

Full word reading works fine for a subset of kids, but it leaves a sizeable amount behind. Phonics is fundamental for teaching those kids how to read. This is how the podcast explains what reading research has found about how people learn to read: - First learn to associate letters with sounds - By sounding out words, reinforce those associations - And associate combinations of letters with known words from their spoken language Our brains aren't wired for written language like they are for spoken language. We have to actively learn. And by associating letters with sounds, our brains are able to loop in the existing language areas of the brain into written language.

anon291 4y ago

> I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words Taking words on a page and reading them out loud is a fundamental aspect of reading. The way you've written it here, you were not fully able to read until the fifth grade. That is ... problematic. From my perspective, the problem is this. Phonetic reading naturally encompasses whole word reading, because a child who starts reading with phonics, eventually reads 'the whole word' (I don't think any adult spends any amount of time examining the minutiae of letter ordering in everyday life). However, the opposite does not work. As you pointed out, despite your high reading level, you weren't able to figure out basic phonetic rules until high school. This would be problematic if you were learning any new language for example. Even ones not based on latin alphabet. The practice of blending sounds together is a fundamental part of reading. A child who is using phonics is able to (1) understand, (2) sound out, (3) and speak the written word (which means they will be able to do things like read poetry). A child who is using the whole word approach may be able to understand, but if they cannot enunciate properly the words on the page, then they cannot do either 2 or 3, which means the reading is not complete. I don't see how we can consider this an acceptable replacement. > I read really fast, I can glance at a word and read it long before any sort of inner voice could catch up and mentally pronounce it. This is not exceptional for an adult.

camgunz 4y ago
>> I was well into middle school before I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words, but by 5th grade I was reading at a college level. > The way you've written it here, you were not fully able to read until the fifth grade. That is ... problematic. I don't really think that's what they're saying here. They wrote "by 5th grade I was reading at a college level". They have the classic "I read a lot so I read words I don't know how to pronounce" issue. That's different than "not fully able to read". >> I read really fast, I can glance at a word and read it long before any sort of inner voice could catch up and mentally pronounce it. > This is not exceptional for an adult. Sadly, I think that it is. I looked up US literacy rates for this thread to validate my memory that they were something like 98%. I learned that not only are they 92% at "level 1", but only "[f]our in five U.S. adults (79 percent) have English literacy skills sufficient to complete tasks that require comparing and contrasting information, paraphrasing, or making low-level inferences" [0]. I know this isn't exactly directly responsive to reading speed or whatever, but this is just to say I had a much rosier picture of US literacy in my head and maybe you do too. [0]: https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2019/2019179/index.asp https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2019/2019179/index.asp
- com2kid 4y ago
  > They have the classic "I read a lot so I read words I don't know how to pronounce" issue. I read a lot of fantasy literature as a kid, and I'll argue that not needing to bother with pronunciation is a huge boon when trying to go through a particular style of fantasy novel!
  - anon291 4y ago
    This is not the gotcha you think it is. Once a child masters reading to themselves silently, phonics or not, the ability to read fantasy novels is immediate. I'm curious how you see a teacher even evaluating a whole word based approach. If the child is unable to enunciate the word they're reading, all you can say is that the child claims to read the word and understand it.
com2kid 4y ago