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The podcast goes into how this is exactly wrong. For phonetic languages, kids best learn to read via phonics.

by pitaj 3y ago

SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
> kids best learn to read via phonics. parent comment didn't say "learn best", it said "learn first".
- pitaj 3y ago
  Even in phonics, kids learn common words like "the" by sight. But that doesn't scale. People don't learn to recognize every word as an individual token.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
    > But that doesn't scale. You're saying that they move on from it. That doesn't contradict the "learn first" part, does it?
com2kid 3y ago
This is one of those topics that people debate endlessly because what works "for most" does not work "for all". I learned full word reading, it works great for me. I was well into middle school before I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words, but by 5th grade I was reading at a college level. Pretty sure I didn't internalize "e at the end makes vowels long" until nearly high school. I read really fast, I can glance at a word and read it long before any sort of inner voice could catch up and mentally pronounce it. I've met plenty of other people who are the same, but I will also acknowledge that this doesn't work for everyone. But you know what? I bet a lot of chemists "read" chemical names the same way.
- pitaj 3y ago
  Full word reading works fine for a subset of kids, but it leaves a sizeable amount behind. Phonics is fundamental for teaching those kids how to read. This is how the podcast explains what reading research has found about how people learn to read: - First learn to associate letters with sounds - By sounding out words, reinforce those associations - And associate combinations of letters with known words from their spoken language Our brains aren't wired for written language like they are for spoken language. We have to actively learn. And by associating letters with sounds, our brains are able to loop in the existing language areas of the brain into written language.
- anon291 3y ago
  > I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words Taking words on a page and reading them out loud is a fundamental aspect of reading. The way you've written it here, you were not fully able to read until the fifth grade. That is ... problematic. From my perspective, the problem is this. Phonetic reading naturally encompasses whole word reading, because a child who starts reading with phonics, eventually reads 'the whole word' (I don't think any adult spends any amount of time examining the minutiae of letter ordering in everyday life). However, the opposite does not work. As you pointed out, despite your high reading level, you weren't able to figure out basic phonetic rules until high school. This would be problematic if you were learning any new language for example. Even ones not based on latin alphabet. The practice of blending sounds together is a fundamental part of reading. A child who is using phonics is able to (1) understand, (2) sound out, (3) and speak the written word (which means they will be able to do things like read poetry). A child who is using the whole word approach may be able to understand, but if they cannot enunciate properly the words on the page, then they cannot do either 2 or 3, which means the reading is not complete. I don't see how we can consider this an acceptable replacement. > I read really fast, I can glance at a word and read it long before any sort of inner voice could catch up and mentally pronounce it. This is not exceptional for an adult.
  - camgunz 3y ago
    >> I was well into middle school before I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words, but by 5th grade I was reading at a college level. > The way you've written it here, you were not fully able to read until the fifth grade. That is ... problematic. I don't really think that's what they're saying here. They wrote "by 5th grade I was reading at a college level". They have the classic "I read a lot so I read words I don't know how to pronounce" issue. That's different than "not fully able to read". >> I read really fast, I can glance at a word and read it long before any sort of inner voice could catch up and mentally pronounce it. > This is not exceptional for an adult. Sadly, I think that it is. I looked up US literacy rates for this thread to validate my memory that they were something like 98%. I learned that not only are they 92% at "level 1", but only "[f]our in five U.S. adults (79 percent) have English literacy skills sufficient to complete tasks that require comparing and contrasting information, paraphrasing, or making low-level inferences" [0]. I know this isn't exactly directly responsive to reading speed or whatever, but this is just to say I had a much rosier picture of US literacy in my head and maybe you do too. [0]: https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2019/2019179/index.asp https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2019/2019179/index.asp

The podcast goes into how this is exactly wrong. For phonetic languages, kids best learn to read via phonics.

by pitaj 3y ago

The podcast goes into how this is exactly wrong. For phonetic languages, kids best learn to read via phonics.

SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago

> kids best learn to read via phonics. parent comment didn't say "learn best", it said "learn first".

pitaj 3y ago
Even in phonics, kids learn common words like "the" by sight. But that doesn't scale. People don't learn to recognize every word as an individual token.
- SideburnsOfDoom 3y ago
  > But that doesn't scale. You're saying that they move on from it. That doesn't contradict the "learn first" part, does it?

com2kid 3y ago

This is one of those topics that people debate endlessly because what works "for most" does not work "for all". I learned full word reading, it works great for me. I was well into middle school before I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words, but by 5th grade I was reading at a college level. Pretty sure I didn't internalize "e at the end makes vowels long" until nearly high school. I read really fast, I can glance at a word and read it long before any sort of inner voice could catch up and mentally pronounce it. I've met plenty of other people who are the same, but I will also acknowledge that this doesn't work for everyone. But you know what? I bet a lot of chemists "read" chemical names the same way.

pitaj 3y ago
Full word reading works fine for a subset of kids, but it leaves a sizeable amount behind. Phonics is fundamental for teaching those kids how to read. This is how the podcast explains what reading research has found about how people learn to read: - First learn to associate letters with sounds - By sounding out words, reinforce those associations - And associate combinations of letters with known words from their spoken language Our brains aren't wired for written language like they are for spoken language. We have to actively learn. And by associating letters with sounds, our brains are able to loop in the existing language areas of the brain into written language.
anon291 3y ago
> I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words Taking words on a page and reading them out loud is a fundamental aspect of reading. The way you've written it here, you were not fully able to read until the fifth grade. That is ... problematic. From my perspective, the problem is this. Phonetic reading naturally encompasses whole word reading, because a child who starts reading with phonics, eventually reads 'the whole word' (I don't think any adult spends any amount of time examining the minutiae of letter ordering in everyday life). However, the opposite does not work. As you pointed out, despite your high reading level, you weren't able to figure out basic phonetic rules until high school. This would be problematic if you were learning any new language for example. Even ones not based on latin alphabet. The practice of blending sounds together is a fundamental part of reading. A child who is using phonics is able to (1) understand, (2) sound out, (3) and speak the written word (which means they will be able to do things like read poetry). A child who is using the whole word approach may be able to understand, but if they cannot enunciate properly the words on the page, then they cannot do either 2 or 3, which means the reading is not complete. I don't see how we can consider this an acceptable replacement. > I read really fast, I can glance at a word and read it long before any sort of inner voice could catch up and mentally pronounce it. This is not exceptional for an adult.
- camgunz 3y ago
  >> I was well into middle school before I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words, but by 5th grade I was reading at a college level. > The way you've written it here, you were not fully able to read until the fifth grade. That is ... problematic. I don't really think that's what they're saying here. They wrote "by 5th grade I was reading at a college level". They have the classic "I read a lot so I read words I don't know how to pronounce" issue. That's different than "not fully able to read". >> I read really fast, I can glance at a word and read it long before any sort of inner voice could catch up and mentally pronounce it. > This is not exceptional for an adult. Sadly, I think that it is. I looked up US literacy rates for this thread to validate my memory that they were something like 98%. I learned that not only are they 92% at "level 1", but only "[f]our in five U.S. adults (79 percent) have English literacy skills sufficient to complete tasks that require comparing and contrasting information, paraphrasing, or making low-level inferences" [0]. I know this isn't exactly directly responsive to reading speed or whatever, but this is just to say I had a much rosier picture of US literacy in my head and maybe you do too. [0]: https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2019/2019179/index.asp https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2019/2019179/index.asp