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> if you just teach phonics you aren't actually helping kids to read (they've tried) because reading is more than just sounds Of course, decoding isn't suffici

> if you just teach phonics you aren't actually helping kids to read (they've tried) because reading is more than just sounds Of course, decoding isn't sufficient on its own (I can 'read' Portuguese without understanding it). But for a child who has oral fluency in a phonetic language, decoding is the main thing they need to learn, to allow them to bootstrap additional reading skills.

anon291 4y ago
I have heard many teachers make this same criticism and it's so odd to me. Little children learn to read first by literally reading out loud. It's only later that 'silent' reading develops, and for most of us (I'd venture), we silently read by internally 'hearing' the audio version. At least I do (I'm listening to myself narrate this comment as I type it out silently). How else can you learn to read if not sounding out? I clearly remember myself learning to read, sounding out words and then being like 'oh that word is X'. And I see the same wheels turning with my daughter.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Little children learn to read first by literally reading out loud. IME, little children learn to read first by recognizing whole words that other people read out loud, and the best learn-to-read curricula recognize and leverage that heavily, and use it to progress to add in phonics skills via using words that vary in one phoneme to reinforce what the common part sounds like. Phonics is useful as one of the skills used to identify unfamiliar words when children progress to reading independently, but even there its not the only thing going on (context is important). > How else can you learn to read if not sounding out? Whole word recognition. That written languages have existed that are logographic rather than phonetic makes it clear that it is possible to read, and learn to read, by means other than phonics, which is only potentially useful as part of the process in phonetic languages. But even where it can be part of the process, its not the whole story.
  - pitaj 4y ago
    The podcast goes into how this is exactly wrong. For phonetic languages, kids best learn to read via phonics.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
      > kids best learn to read via phonics. parent comment didn't say "learn best", it said "learn first".
      - pitaj 4y ago
        Even in phonics, kids learn common words like "the" by sight. But that doesn't scale. People don't learn to recognize every word as an individual token.
        SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
        > But that doesn't scale. You're saying that they move on from it. That doesn't contradict the "learn first" part, does it?
    - com2kid 4y ago
      This is one of those topics that people debate endlessly because what works "for most" does not work "for all". I learned full word reading, it works great for me. I was well into middle school before I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words, but by 5th grade I was reading at a college level. Pretty sure I didn't internalize "e at the end makes vowels long" until nearly high school. I read really fast, I can glance at a word and read it long before any sort of inner voice could catch up and mentally pronounce it. I've met plenty of other people who are the same, but I will also acknowledge that this doesn't work for everyone. But you know what? I bet a lot of chemists "read" chemical names the same way.
      - pitaj 4y ago
        Full word reading works fine for a subset of kids, but it leaves a sizeable amount behind. Phonics is fundamental for teaching those kids how to read. This is how the podcast explains what reading research has found about how people learn to read: - First learn to associate letters with sounds - By sounding out words, reinforce those associations - And associate combinations of letters with known words from their spoken language Our brains aren't wired for written language like they are for spoken language. We have to actively learn. And by associating letters with sounds, our brains are able to loop in the existing language areas of the brain into written language.
- davemp 4y ago
  > . . . and for most of us (I'd venture), we silently read by internally 'hearing' the audio version. Not until I read this sentence! Feels a bit like "breathing manually".

anon291 4y ago

I have heard many teachers make this same criticism and it's so odd to me. Little children learn to read first by literally reading out loud. It's only later that 'silent' reading develops, and for most of us (I'd venture), we silently read by internally 'hearing' the audio version. At least I do (I'm listening to myself narrate this comment as I type it out silently). How else can you learn to read if not sounding out? I clearly remember myself learning to read, sounding out words and then being like 'oh that word is X'. And I see the same wheels turning with my daughter.

dragonwriter 4y ago
> Little children learn to read first by literally reading out loud. IME, little children learn to read first by recognizing whole words that other people read out loud, and the best learn-to-read curricula recognize and leverage that heavily, and use it to progress to add in phonics skills via using words that vary in one phoneme to reinforce what the common part sounds like. Phonics is useful as one of the skills used to identify unfamiliar words when children progress to reading independently, but even there its not the only thing going on (context is important). > How else can you learn to read if not sounding out? Whole word recognition. That written languages have existed that are logographic rather than phonetic makes it clear that it is possible to read, and learn to read, by means other than phonics, which is only potentially useful as part of the process in phonetic languages. But even where it can be part of the process, its not the whole story.
- pitaj 4y ago
  The podcast goes into how this is exactly wrong. For phonetic languages, kids best learn to read via phonics.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
    > kids best learn to read via phonics. parent comment didn't say "learn best", it said "learn first".
    - pitaj 4y ago
      Even in phonics, kids learn common words like "the" by sight. But that doesn't scale. People don't learn to recognize every word as an individual token.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
        > But that doesn't scale. You're saying that they move on from it. That doesn't contradict the "learn first" part, does it?
  - com2kid 4y ago
    This is one of those topics that people debate endlessly because what works "for most" does not work "for all". I learned full word reading, it works great for me. I was well into middle school before I learned I didn't know how to pronounce a lot of words, but by 5th grade I was reading at a college level. Pretty sure I didn't internalize "e at the end makes vowels long" until nearly high school. I read really fast, I can glance at a word and read it long before any sort of inner voice could catch up and mentally pronounce it. I've met plenty of other people who are the same, but I will also acknowledge that this doesn't work for everyone. But you know what? I bet a lot of chemists "read" chemical names the same way.
    - pitaj 4y ago
      Full word reading works fine for a subset of kids, but it leaves a sizeable amount behind. Phonics is fundamental for teaching those kids how to read. This is how the podcast explains what reading research has found about how people learn to read: - First learn to associate letters with sounds - By sounding out words, reinforce those associations - And associate combinations of letters with known words from their spoken language Our brains aren't wired for written language like they are for spoken language. We have to actively learn. And by associating letters with sounds, our brains are able to loop in the existing language areas of the brain into written language.
davemp 4y ago
> . . . and for most of us (I'd venture), we silently read by internally 'hearing' the audio version. Not until I read this sentence! Feels a bit like "breathing manually".