4 ms·

I really want to see what would happen if the "taxes are theft" crowd actually lived in a society without taxes. I suspect they'd go maybe a couple months befo

I really want to see what would happen if the "taxes are theft" crowd actually lived in a society without taxes. I suspect they'd go maybe a couple months before they were like "hey we should pool money together to fix the potholes in the roads". And eventually they're going to form something that looks a hell of a lot like a government, and they're going to have to collect something that looks a hell of a lot like taxes. And then give it a couple of generations and you'll have a brand new bunch of human house cats crying "taxation is theft". Which is why the only practical thing to do with libertarians is to ignore them.

TechBro8615 4y ago
How long until they start burning through $1 trillion a year on military airplanes that don't work?
- p1necone 4y ago
  The sane reaction to that is "hey our government kinda sucks, we should change it via (voting/protesting/a coup/a revolution)" or if you're a bit more cynical "hey our government kinda sucks, I'ma start working on getting citizenship/a visa somewhere else". Not "hey we should live in magical fairyland where nobody collectively organizes anything but I still get to live almost exactly as I do now". (Also potentially workable: "hey our government kinda sucks, I'm going to go and live on a commune with a small enough number of people that we can actually coexist based on general kindness and goodwill")
  - logicchains 4y ago
    >The sane reaction to that is "hey our government kinda sucks, we should change it via (voting/protesting/a coup/a revolution That's not a sane reaction; insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. The military industrial complex is not going to be killed through the democratic process, because it owns both sides.
    - KyeRussell 4y ago
      Let’s not conflate America’s “democratic process” with the democratic process. Your silly FPTP voting system is barely the tip of the iceberg.
    - elcritch 4y ago
      The underlying philosophy embedded in your statement is part of the issue in America in recent years: people have become apathetic. A representative government isn't a one time and you're done deal. It requires lots of people to genuinely put time and effort into it. Multiple times in the US'es history we've had even more greed, corruption, poverty, etc, but protests and social movements helped reset the needle. Things like normalizing 8 hour work shifts had to be fought for. Currently both major parties get away with a lot of what they do because most of us don't participate and force both sides to answer questions and be accountable. Like, I think pushing for non-winner takes all voting at some levels would be good. But I don't goto local party events or involve myself, so I can't complain too much.
  - carlosjobim 4y ago
    The sane reaction is to stop paying taxes.
- B1FF_PSUVM 4y ago
  The airplanes work perfectly fine - at least as wealth management ...
- registeredcorn 4y ago
  If you're referring to the F35, I encourage you to look at the evidence about it. LazerPig [1] does a great job in presenting some of the hair brained ideas of reformers [2]. I used to be firmly in the reformist camp until I actually examined the evidence. The A-10C for example, has one of the highest rates of friendly fire, affecting both US [3] and British [4] servicemen. Using binoculars is not a great way of navigating an aircraft. I'd also ask you to consider: Is it better to make an affordable aircraft, if it means the pilots flying it are more likely to die? There's more than enough avenues which can be done to reign in Military overspending. No one is denying that the Military overspends on many things. It's a serious problem. Generally though, targeting the machines keeping people from crashing into the ground is not the one to aim at. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH8o9DIIXqI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH8o9DIIXqI [2] https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/0208reformers/ https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/0208reformers/ [3] https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2015/02/06/a-10-warplane-tops-list-for-friendly-fire-deaths/ https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2015/02/06... [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMnyVioLJbs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMnyVioLJbs Edit: I think this comment sounded a bit rude the first way I worded it. Hopefully it doesn't now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
wlesieutre 4y ago
You might like this book about an attempt in New Hampshire https://www.amazon.com/dp/1541788516/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/1541788516/
- whateveracct 4y ago
  tl;dr it went poorly
- p1necone 4y ago
  I've heard about that, it went about as well as one might expect. I find it really bizarre because it's like they didn't even try. They really just thought that they could completely gut all of the government services, replace them with nothing and the wonders of magical capitalism would just handle everything.
  - imtringued 4y ago
    This is one of the problems.with equilibrium theories. They don't describe how the equilibrium is reached, they simply assume it will be reached.
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    There is the concept of economic externalities[1] that drive costs up in ways that people don't even think about. Like mail delivery. If you didn't have paved roads and police then all of your deliveries would have to be, essentially, in armored cars with good shocks (i.e. almost off-roading capabilities). The cost of operating those vehicles is high, and the costs to you to ship a parcel would also be absurd. FedEx can get a shipment to you in 3 days because there is a robust infrastructure that isn't besieged daily by robbers This isn't an abstraction: Wells Fargo got its start moving money across the "wild west" in armored transports. There was a reason for that, and they were often the only (expensive) option for shipping if there wasn't a train or regular trade route though rural towns. They even had custom shotguns (the original "coach guns" made for that specific purpose.[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coach_gun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coach_gun
midhhhthrow 4y ago
Do you think there’s a threshold at which point non libertarians would agree taxation is theft? Perhaps when gov spending is 80% of gdp ? 90%. 100%? 110%? We’re already now at 44% here in the US. And if you’re in the Bay Area or tech, almost certainly your paying a lot more if you count all the downstream taxes like property taxes permitting sales tax, and all taxes you pay when you buy stuff.
- carlosjobim 4y ago
  > Do you think there’s a threshold at which point non libertarians would agree taxation is theft? No. Including interest to banks, most Western nations are already way beyond 110% taxation on private individuals. Meaning if you work hard in a normal job your whole life, you should expect to be heavily indebted when you die, without any personal property except for a few trinkets.

TechBro8615 4y ago

How long until they start burning through $1 trillion a year on military airplanes that don't work?

p1necone 4y ago
The sane reaction to that is "hey our government kinda sucks, we should change it via (voting/protesting/a coup/a revolution)" or if you're a bit more cynical "hey our government kinda sucks, I'ma start working on getting citizenship/a visa somewhere else". Not "hey we should live in magical fairyland where nobody collectively organizes anything but I still get to live almost exactly as I do now". (Also potentially workable: "hey our government kinda sucks, I'm going to go and live on a commune with a small enough number of people that we can actually coexist based on general kindness and goodwill")
- logicchains 4y ago
  >The sane reaction to that is "hey our government kinda sucks, we should change it via (voting/protesting/a coup/a revolution That's not a sane reaction; insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. The military industrial complex is not going to be killed through the democratic process, because it owns both sides.
  - KyeRussell 4y ago
    Let’s not conflate America’s “democratic process” with the democratic process. Your silly FPTP voting system is barely the tip of the iceberg.
  - elcritch 4y ago
    The underlying philosophy embedded in your statement is part of the issue in America in recent years: people have become apathetic. A representative government isn't a one time and you're done deal. It requires lots of people to genuinely put time and effort into it. Multiple times in the US'es history we've had even more greed, corruption, poverty, etc, but protests and social movements helped reset the needle. Things like normalizing 8 hour work shifts had to be fought for. Currently both major parties get away with a lot of what they do because most of us don't participate and force both sides to answer questions and be accountable. Like, I think pushing for non-winner takes all voting at some levels would be good. But I don't goto local party events or involve myself, so I can't complain too much.
- carlosjobim 4y ago
  The sane reaction is to stop paying taxes.
B1FF_PSUVM 4y ago
The airplanes work perfectly fine - at least as wealth management ...
registeredcorn 4y ago
If you're referring to the F35, I encourage you to look at the evidence about it. LazerPig [1] does a great job in presenting some of the hair brained ideas of reformers [2]. I used to be firmly in the reformist camp until I actually examined the evidence. The A-10C for example, has one of the highest rates of friendly fire, affecting both US [3] and British [4] servicemen. Using binoculars is not a great way of navigating an aircraft. I'd also ask you to consider: Is it better to make an affordable aircraft, if it means the pilots flying it are more likely to die? There's more than enough avenues which can be done to reign in Military overspending. No one is denying that the Military overspends on many things. It's a serious problem. Generally though, targeting the machines keeping people from crashing into the ground is not the one to aim at. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH8o9DIIXqI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH8o9DIIXqI [2] https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/0208reformers/ https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/0208reformers/ [3] https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2015/02/06/a-10-warplane-tops-list-for-friendly-fire-deaths/ https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2015/02/06... [4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMnyVioLJbs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMnyVioLJbs Edit: I think this comment sounded a bit rude the first way I worded it. Hopefully it doesn't now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

wlesieutre 4y ago

You might like this book about an attempt in New Hampshire https://www.amazon.com/dp/1541788516/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/1541788516/

whateveracct 4y ago
tl;dr it went poorly
p1necone 4y ago
I've heard about that, it went about as well as one might expect. I find it really bizarre because it's like they didn't even try. They really just thought that they could completely gut all of the government services, replace them with nothing and the wonders of magical capitalism would just handle everything.
- imtringued 4y ago
  This is one of the problems.with equilibrium theories. They don't describe how the equilibrium is reached, they simply assume it will be reached.
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  There is the concept of economic externalities[1] that drive costs up in ways that people don't even think about. Like mail delivery. If you didn't have paved roads and police then all of your deliveries would have to be, essentially, in armored cars with good shocks (i.e. almost off-roading capabilities). The cost of operating those vehicles is high, and the costs to you to ship a parcel would also be absurd. FedEx can get a shipment to you in 3 days because there is a robust infrastructure that isn't besieged daily by robbers This isn't an abstraction: Wells Fargo got its start moving money across the "wild west" in armored transports. There was a reason for that, and they were often the only (expensive) option for shipping if there wasn't a train or regular trade route though rural towns. They even had custom shotguns (the original "coach guns" made for that specific purpose.[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coach_gun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coach_gun

midhhhthrow 4y ago

Do you think there’s a threshold at which point non libertarians would agree taxation is theft? Perhaps when gov spending is 80% of gdp ? 90%. 100%? 110%? We’re already now at 44% here in the US. And if you’re in the Bay Area or tech, almost certainly your paying a lot more if you count all the downstream taxes like property taxes permitting sales tax, and all taxes you pay when you buy stuff.

carlosjobim 4y ago
> Do you think there’s a threshold at which point non libertarians would agree taxation is theft? No. Including interest to banks, most Western nations are already way beyond 110% taxation on private individuals. Meaning if you work hard in a normal job your whole life, you should expect to be heavily indebted when you die, without any personal property except for a few trinkets.