4 ms·

Same issue in Canada: our big ISPs historically refuse to peer freely at our domestic IXs like TORIX. So smaller ISP and DCs end up peering with them in the USA

Same issue in Canada: our big ISPs historically refuse to peer freely at our domestic IXs like TORIX. So smaller ISP and DCs end up peering with them in the USA and your packets would make circuitous cross-border round trips to go a few km. Some national players do have ports at domestic IXs, but only as backup links or for negotiated (paid?) access. The hazards of ISPs also being backbone providers. (It looks like Rogers has gotten better with this behaviour)

ShroudedNight 4y ago
As far as I can tell, Bell holds its Canadian customers hostage to force peers to pay them for what should be mutually beneficial peering. It does not participate in _ANY_ of the Canadian internet exchanges. Even Rogers connects to TORIX. https://bgp.he.net/AS577#_ix https://bgp.he.net/AS577#_ix
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  I know Rogers for a while had 'conditional' peering at Torix, but doing some traceroutes now, more routes are going through Torix than I recall in the past. Seems like they've lightened up over the past couple years. Too bad the indie ISP market has been decimated. Ebox & Distributel --> Bell. Start --> Telus. Oxio --> Cogeco. VMedia --> Quebecor (Videotron). Mostly only Teksavvy left standing Indeed with Bell & Telus, you could only peer freely on US soil: https://www.peeringdb.com/net/1550 https://www.peeringdb.com/net/1550 https://www.peeringdb.com/net/76 https://www.peeringdb.com/net/76
- catminou 4y ago
  Because they believe you are customers. This is no different than me approaching Verizon or at&t and demanding they peer with me.
  - ShroudedNight 4y ago
    As it turns out, I am a Bell retail customer being held hostage by their refusal to engage in seemingly any settlement-free peering with other Canadian networks. I am only their customer because the third-party providers indicated that they were unable to provide service despite Bell DSL service being subject to local-loop unbundling. As the monopoly incumbent that has received significant subsidy to develop their services, I believe they should have a duty to peer at not-for-profit Canadian internet exchanges that meet minimum traffic and peer diversity thresholds.
    - catminou 4y ago
      I agree in that the Canadian ISP market has had a rough ride for a long time. Until the mid 2000s when Cogent and other folks (GTT) rolled into Canada, TELUS, Bell and other companies were charging obscene rates for IP transit. For several years the TELUS and Bell peering PNIs (OC12s back then) would run hot regularly in domestic Canada - for years. You'll never get them to peer openly, but at best you can get them to offer market rates for paid peer (which is what folks have tried to do in the US).
      - Scoundreller 4y ago
        > You’ll never get them to peer openly Maybe I’ve got it wrong, but don’t my peeringdb links suggest Bell and Telus do peer openly, but only on US soil? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35595697 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35595697
        catminou 4y ago
        My recollection is that they're still selective in the US. Maybe that's changed.
catminou 4y ago
This has nothing to do with torix. This has to do with bell and telus sees you as customers, not peers.

ShroudedNight 4y ago

As far as I can tell, Bell holds its Canadian customers hostage to force peers to pay them for what should be mutually beneficial peering. It does not participate in _ANY_ of the Canadian internet exchanges. Even Rogers connects to TORIX. https://bgp.he.net/AS577#_ix https://bgp.he.net/AS577#_ix

Scoundreller 4y ago
I know Rogers for a while had 'conditional' peering at Torix, but doing some traceroutes now, more routes are going through Torix than I recall in the past. Seems like they've lightened up over the past couple years. Too bad the indie ISP market has been decimated. Ebox & Distributel --> Bell. Start --> Telus. Oxio --> Cogeco. VMedia --> Quebecor (Videotron). Mostly only Teksavvy left standing Indeed with Bell & Telus, you could only peer freely on US soil: https://www.peeringdb.com/net/1550 https://www.peeringdb.com/net/1550 https://www.peeringdb.com/net/76 https://www.peeringdb.com/net/76
catminou 4y ago
Because they believe you are customers. This is no different than me approaching Verizon or at&t and demanding they peer with me.
- ShroudedNight 4y ago
  As it turns out, I am a Bell retail customer being held hostage by their refusal to engage in seemingly any settlement-free peering with other Canadian networks. I am only their customer because the third-party providers indicated that they were unable to provide service despite Bell DSL service being subject to local-loop unbundling. As the monopoly incumbent that has received significant subsidy to develop their services, I believe they should have a duty to peer at not-for-profit Canadian internet exchanges that meet minimum traffic and peer diversity thresholds.
  - catminou 4y ago
    I agree in that the Canadian ISP market has had a rough ride for a long time. Until the mid 2000s when Cogent and other folks (GTT) rolled into Canada, TELUS, Bell and other companies were charging obscene rates for IP transit. For several years the TELUS and Bell peering PNIs (OC12s back then) would run hot regularly in domestic Canada - for years. You'll never get them to peer openly, but at best you can get them to offer market rates for paid peer (which is what folks have tried to do in the US).
    - Scoundreller 4y ago
      > You’ll never get them to peer openly Maybe I’ve got it wrong, but don’t my peeringdb links suggest Bell and Telus do peer openly, but only on US soil? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35595697 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35595697
      - catminou 4y ago
        My recollection is that they're still selective in the US. Maybe that's changed.

catminou 4y ago

This has nothing to do with torix. This has to do with bell and telus sees you as customers, not peers.