8 ms·
CrabLang
- The_Colonel 3y agoSo ... will anyone reveal the secret and say of which language this is a fork ok? No samples, no documentation, vague reference to "plant fungus"?
- mjmsmith 3y agohttps://extension.umn.edu/plant-diseases/cedar-apple-rust https://extension.umn.edu/plant-diseases/cedar-apple-rust
- 1827162 3y agoAn apple tree, once infected, can colonize junipers and cedars as far as 6 miles away(!). Yes, a highly infectious and amazing organism. https://portal.ct.gov/CAES/Fact-Sheets/Plant-Pathology/Cedar-Apple-Rust https://portal.ct.gov/CAES/Fact-Sheets/Plant-Pathology/Cedar... "As many as 7.5 million spores may be produced in a single gall and these spores have been known to be carried as far as 6 miles."
- a2800276 3y agoRust
- The_Colonel 3y agoThanks. I've only known the "oxidized metal" meaning of "rust".
- 1827162 3y agoFrom IRC: <graydon> I think I named it after fungi. rusts are amazing creatures. <graydon> Five-lifecycle-phase heteroecious parasites. I mean, that's just _crazy_. <graydon> talk about over-engineered for survival <jonanin> what does that mean? :] <graydon> fungi are amazingly robust <graydon> to start, they are distributed organisms. not single cellular, but also no single point of failure. <graydon> then depending on the fungi, they have more than just the usual 2 lifecycle phases of critters like us (somatic and gamete) https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/27jvdt/internet_archaeology_the_definitive_endall_source/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/27jvdt/internet_archa...
- Brian_K_White 3y agoPart of the point is that if you read the Rust foundation's recent document strictly enough, anyone else aren't actually allowed to say the name Rust, since they didn't get explicit permission and/or aren't willing to comply with all of the terms. So they don't dare say the name to avoid any chance of being sued. Not that it's actually likely, but the point is that the document is that bad, so IF you take it at it's word, then well that's how it evaluates out, is the only way to be safe is just don't use the actual logo or name at all. Anything else you do technically runs afoul of at least one of the many terms and conditions in there.
- jhanschoo 3y agoYou can always use the word Rust to refer to the actual Rust language or the Rust project. In a similar fashion the Python Software Foundation will sue you for trademark infringement if you create a general-purpose programming language distinct from Python and call it Python.
- owlglass 3y agoFrom the GitHub repo: * A community fork of a language named after a plant fungus. All of the memory-safe features you love, now with 100% less bureaucracy! * I assumed with the 'oxide' and 'ferrous' references that Rust's etymology had to do with corrosion, and while that's part of the explanation, it's mostly about fungi [1] [1] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/16494822/why-is-it-called-rust https://stackoverflow.com/questions/16494822/why-is-it-calle...
- adrianmonk 3y agoI assumed it was a joke based on the phrase "close to the metal" (zero-cost abstractions allowing high-level features without sacrificing performance). Nothing is closer to metal than an oxidation layer.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Sindisil 3y agoThis is similar to all the snake references around Python. That language being named after Monty Python's Flying Circus.
- Waterluvian 3y agoWow had no idea. My assumption was it was about building something so durable and stable that it’ll be around forever. Which doesn’t make sense given oxidization slowly robs something of its durability. But Discord is named using a word that means “disagreement and lack of harmony” so I kind of look past weird branding in tech.
- toomuchtodo 3y agoRelated: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35510987 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35510987
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jadodev 3y ago> This was not a "knee-jerk" reaction, nor was it an attempt to spread fear or cause panic. While the document the foundation drafted did lead to the fork, we believe it is an overdue solution to a problem that already existed, and addresses some issues that many community members have had for some time. This is obviously very knee-jerk and will either die or end up creating the same bureaucracy that Rust has. People love to complain about bureaucracy without understanding it exists for many reasons. The Rust teams are far more equipped to handle the development of Rust than anyone entertaining this fork (unless, of course, a significant number of members of the Rust teams decide to move over).
- bogwog 3y ago> The Rust teams are far more equipped to handle the development of Rust than anyone entertaining this fork (unless, of course, a significant number of members of the Rust teams decide to move over). As a form of protest against the silly Rust Foundation, a fork of the language which is simply a rebranded mirror of Rust sources would work.
- armchairhacker 3y agoThe Rust trademark is proposal published literally to see what the community thinks. And the community thinks…it’s a bad idea. So as long as the foundation changes their mind I really don’t think they‘ve done anything wrong, and anyone who’s said “the Rust foundation is trademarking the name ‘Rust’” or “the Rust foundation has trademarked the name ‘Rust’” overreacted. If they listen to all this feedback and still move forward with the trademark, then they’re truly awful, since they, the leaders of this “community-driven organization”. just ignored 90% of the community. But that hasn’t happened yet, in fact all they’ve done is actively “seek community input” by publishing this draft.
- rvz 3y agoSo here comes the in-fighting. Looks like someone listened to the call to action to fork the language [0] and just did that to their 'beloved' language. Again, the moment the Rust Foundation chose to be a 501(c)(6) it was all going to go downhill from there as I and others have warned about this [1] years before. There is a good reason why other language foundations like Python Software Foundation, NumFocus (Julia lang), D Language Foundation, Zig Software Foundation, R Foundation, etc, are 501(c)(3). [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35524666 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35524666 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35583460 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35583460
- woodruffw 3y agoI’m struggling to understand why the IRS nonprofit type is material here. Your previous post doesn’t really explain it either: a 501(c)(3) can impose trademark restrictions in the exact same way.
- marcosdumay 3y agoI don't think anybody can impose trademark restrictions the way the Rust Foundation was planing to... But anyway, the details of how a non-profit is created have a lot of impact on the incentives for their managers.
- woodruffw 3y agoNot anybody. The claim was that there’s no difference between individual nonprofit types in terms of trademarking abilities: the Rust trademark policy could just as easily exist under a (c)(3). (c)(3)s serve the public interest; (c)(6)s serve the interests of their members. But this doesn’t imply anything about a management class; it’s just a simpler and less fraught way to achieve tax-exempt status for a software community, especially one that was originally smaller.
- programmarchy 3y agoReminds me of the io.js [1] fork of Node in the battle with Joyent. [1] https://gist.github.com/maxogden/d96123138522c84cdb25 https://gist.github.com/maxogden/d96123138522c84cdb25
- jitl 3y agoIO forked for technical reasons because Joyent wouldn’t entertain improvements. This rust drama is because some programming Youtubers/streamers don’t understand copyright and fair use, and of course want to bait rage clicks.
- spion 3y agoIs there a lawyer that agrees with that statement? A reminder that the Debian project found it necessary to fork Firefox into Iceweasel for a very similar reason.
- tcmart14 3y agoThat is one of my top worries. If the, taking Debian as an example, has a sufficient amount of patches for their rust package that have not been upstream or upstream won't accept, does Debian now need to offer Rust under a different name because the Rust Foundation may not allow them to use the "Rust" branding?
- throwaway202303 3y agoThat is a massive simplification of what has russled peoples jimmies. The proposal goes a bit too far with what is reasonably required
- Brian_K_White 3y agoA trademark copyright document tries to have opinions about allowing guns at conventions, and you try to say the youtubers don't understand copyright?
- nequo 3y ago
- wiz21c 3y agoFTA: > Our main goal is to ensure that the community has an alternative that aligns with their values and desire for unrestricted use. How is the use restricted nowadays ? Moreover, wouldn't it be better to help the gcc's rust front end ? GNU will protect the community for sure.
- spion 3y agoThere is a new proposed trademark policy that bans the use of the "rust" trademark in domain names, package names and educational material (unless the educational material starts with a disclamer denouncing affiliation with the Rust (TM) Foundation https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/12e7tdb/rust_trademark_policy_feedback_form/ https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/12e7tdb/rust_trademar...)
- Yoric 3y agoIs that a problem?
- gkbrk 3y agoYes, in many programming language ecosystems (including Rust), it is very common to use the language of the programming name in project names, library names, domain names, meeting names etc. Suddenly saying this is not okay unless you get explicit approval beforehand is very unusual for an "open" programming language.
- Brian_K_White 3y agoyes
- rascul 3y agoIs rust-gcc an allowed name according to the draft policy?
- efaref 3y agoNo. And that's basically the point of the concerns everyone has.
- spencerchubb 3y agoSo the only difference with CrabLang is that others are allowed to use the CrabLang name and logo in the ecosystem? And I don't think CrabLang will be allowed to just copy the Rust logo.
- sporkl 3y agoThe logo CrabLang is using is Ferris, which is not an official Rust logo, and also in the public domain I believe. https://www.rustacean.net/ https://www.rustacean.net/
- bogwog 3y agoCrabLang - the world’s most unpolished programming language!
- doodlesdev 3y agohttps://archive.ph/o4It6 https://archive.ph/o4It6
- skrebbel 3y agoAm I the only one who feels like their stubborn insistence to not say which language they’re forking is just childish? What is this, Hogwarts? I recognize that the whole argument is trademark law and controlling the name “Rust”, but someone having a trademark doesn’t mean that outsiders aren’t allowed to say or write the name. Suggesting that this is the case, is exactly the kind of FUD they say they’re not after.
- spion 3y ago> someone having a trademark doesn’t mean that outsiders aren’t allowed to say or write the name. Did you read the new trademark policy?
- hobofan 3y agoYes, and no trademark policy in the world can make uttering the trademark a forbidden word that no one is ever allowed to say/write.
- throwawaymaths 3y agoWhy risk it
- hobofan 3y agoThe point is: There is no risk. That's the same as taking homeopathics, "just in case". In the end the only thing that does (apart from possible placebo effect) is signal to everyone that you don't have any understanding of the basics of natural sciences (or in this matter the basics of trademark law).
- spion 3y agoThen why is the foundation adding language that signals their intention to sue people who use the trademark in domain names, learning material, packages and so on?
- 3y ago
- bmacho 3y agotl;dr: you can't announce your project on HN with "written in Rust" at the end of the title, but you can say "written in Crab" instead. That's it. Everyone loses, the Rust foundation, the Rust users, and the people who don't care about any of them.
- jitl 3y agoThere’s nothing in the new trademark policy that discourages saying “written in Rust”
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- bmacho 3y agoThere are a lot in the new trademark policy that discourage using the word Rust in any possible way that is not explicitly mentioned as permitted. But you are right, stating "written in Rust" is explicitly mentioned as permitted. 4.1.3 Statements about compatibility, interoperability or derivation You may use the Word Marks, but not the Logos, to truthfully describe the relationship between your software and ours. Our Marks should be used after a verb or preposition that describes the relationship between your software and ours. So you may say, for example, "the Dungeness tool for the Rust compiler" but may not say "the Dungeness Rust compiler," which suggests that Dungeness is the source of the Rust compiler. Some other examples that may work for you are: [Your software] is written in the Rust language [Your software] can compile software written in Rust [Your software] can be used in the Rust compiler toolchain [Your software] is based on the official Rust compiler https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ErZlwz9bbSI43dNo-rgQdkovm2h5ycuW220mWSOAuok/edit# https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ErZlwz9bbSI43dNo-rgQdkov...
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- speed_spread 3y agoRaging Freedom Fighters overtaking that fork in 3,2,1...
- Brian_K_White 3y agoIt's too bad the name is so terrible. It would have been unlikely enough for a fork to go anywhere even without that. I might have tried "Trust".
- EntrePrescott 3y ago"Trust" would sound nice, but it contains "rust" so it might have given an attack surface for a trademark infringement lawsuit by some un-t-rust-able foundation.
- lucasyvas 3y agoFortunately I'm in it for the language and not the name - the fork likely just stands to prove a point and it'll probably end there. But if the governance turns out to be ridiculous the dominant fork will eventually change and most would follow that without hesitation I'd think. Contributors won't want to work on the whatever the "inferior" version is.
- muyuu 3y agoIs it ok to include the copyright message from Rust including references to Rust? https://github.com/crablang/crab/blob/master/COPYRIGHT https://github.com/crablang/crab/blob/master/COPYRIGHT What about attribution?
- zokier 3y ago"lighthearted" and has logo/mascot brandishing a knife not in a friendly way.
- serial_dev 3y agoI believe it's based on the "mess with crabo, get a stabo" meme. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/you-mess-with-crabo-you-get-a-stabo https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/you-mess-with-crabo-you-get-a... And let's not pretend that it is anything other than a lighthearted joke.
- zamnos 3y agoAh yes, the lighthearted kind of stabbing, as opposed to the kind that kills people.
- throwaway202303 3y agoDon’t worry, the cartoon crab isn’t going to stab any of his cartoon friends and start real world violence
- numeromancer 3y agoThis project will be like a cancer for the rust community.
- yebyen 3y agoI see what you did there.
- downvotetruth 3y agoAny pincer attack damage will help get rid of any free radicals by forming a new oxidation layer.
- daviddever23box 3y agoYou Rust folk are easily wound up.
- apaxson 3y agoMy favourite part is the PR to delete the entire repo.
- tcmart14 3y agoEasiest code review of my life. Can't let bad code through a code review if there is no code at all!