4 ms·

Ukraine could have gone an "democracy and freedom" route before 2014, but decided to go along with overthrowing elected governments, restricting language usage

Ukraine could have gone an "democracy and freedom" route before 2014, but decided to go along with overthrowing elected governments, restricting language usage for half of its population and having private torture prisons run by far-right groups. I'm not sure why Taiwan would want to be long-term sundered from China. A hundred years from now, what would be the reasons for a separate Taiwan?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kelipso 4y ago
In my opinion, the only advantage of having a separate Taiwan is so China can't do force projection into the Pacific. Everything else is just political rhetoric.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  But why is it in the long-term interest of Taiwan Chinese?
  - matthewdgreen 4y ago
    If you value the ability to elect your leaders and choose the direction of your society, this question answers itself.
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      In a hundred years this will likely not be relevant, since the periodic elections will eventually have to go giving way to more flexible and internet-enabled mechanisms, and it's not given that mainland China will be lacking those. I'm not sure you can call yourself choosing the direction of your society if "reuniting with mainland" is the direction you are not allowed to choose.
      - nradov 4y ago
        Huh? There's no evidence that periodic elections will have to go.
      - matthewdgreen 4y ago
        So Taiwan/China can reunite as long as the Taiwanese democratically vote in favor of this. Seems fine to me, as long as that’s the condition. I’m not sure what the Internet has to do with elections, nor how it is going to solve the problem of an autocratic Chinese state, but speculative fiction seems fine on HN.
civilized 4y ago
The "overthrow" of Yanukovych in 2014 was hardly by force. Yanukovych fled because his Parliament expressed no confidence in him, and because he didn't feel like dealing with some protests. It would be like Biden fleeing America because Congress condemned him and some Trump supporters with a few guns camped out in DC. More of an abdication than a coup.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  This is not true - the opposition together with three ministers of international affairs has crafted an agreement which would allow him to peacefully transfer presidential power (already violating rights of his voters), and then the protesters has continued overthrowing him regardless. Even if he just flew for no apparent reason as you say, this does not a stable and peaceful democracy make.
  - civilized 4y ago
    None of that contradicts what I pointed out. He fled because he doesn't care about Ukraine. He now has his dream, pampered and anonymous somewhere in Russia. He never says a word. What's a country supposed to do when its leader doesn't feel like working anymore? Doesn't sound like a coup to me.
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      When your (twice) democratically elected president does not care about your country, does that make a democracy? Certainly does in case of early XXI century USA, where these claims fly around concerning both sides of political spectrum
      - civilized 4y ago
        Whenever I point out the reality of 2014 Ukraine on HN, it always degenerates with the other person making some kind of weak, petty counterclaim like this. Nobody can ever admit a simple point. Why do you care so much about this coup narrative that falls apart under the slightest scrutiny?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

kelipso 4y ago

In my opinion, the only advantage of having a separate Taiwan is so China can't do force projection into the Pacific. Everything else is just political rhetoric.

thriftwy 4y ago
But why is it in the long-term interest of Taiwan Chinese?
- matthewdgreen 4y ago
  If you value the ability to elect your leaders and choose the direction of your society, this question answers itself.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    In a hundred years this will likely not be relevant, since the periodic elections will eventually have to go giving way to more flexible and internet-enabled mechanisms, and it's not given that mainland China will be lacking those. I'm not sure you can call yourself choosing the direction of your society if "reuniting with mainland" is the direction you are not allowed to choose.
    - nradov 4y ago
      Huh? There's no evidence that periodic elections will have to go.
    - matthewdgreen 4y ago
      So Taiwan/China can reunite as long as the Taiwanese democratically vote in favor of this. Seems fine to me, as long as that’s the condition. I’m not sure what the Internet has to do with elections, nor how it is going to solve the problem of an autocratic Chinese state, but speculative fiction seems fine on HN.

civilized 4y ago

The "overthrow" of Yanukovych in 2014 was hardly by force. Yanukovych fled because his Parliament expressed no confidence in him, and because he didn't feel like dealing with some protests. It would be like Biden fleeing America because Congress condemned him and some Trump supporters with a few guns camped out in DC. More of an abdication than a coup.

thriftwy 4y ago
This is not true - the opposition together with three ministers of international affairs has crafted an agreement which would allow him to peacefully transfer presidential power (already violating rights of his voters), and then the protesters has continued overthrowing him regardless. Even if he just flew for no apparent reason as you say, this does not a stable and peaceful democracy make.
- civilized 4y ago
  None of that contradicts what I pointed out. He fled because he doesn't care about Ukraine. He now has his dream, pampered and anonymous somewhere in Russia. He never says a word. What's a country supposed to do when its leader doesn't feel like working anymore? Doesn't sound like a coup to me.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    When your (twice) democratically elected president does not care about your country, does that make a democracy? Certainly does in case of early XXI century USA, where these claims fly around concerning both sides of political spectrum
    - civilized 4y ago
      Whenever I point out the reality of 2014 Ukraine on HN, it always degenerates with the other person making some kind of weak, petty counterclaim like this. Nobody can ever admit a simple point. Why do you care so much about this coup narrative that falls apart under the slightest scrutiny?