4 ms·

It's hard to accept because many, many people won't agree with you and do give a fuck.

ActorNightly 3y ago
To anyone that doesn't agree with me, please show me your rooted android phone that has no popular apps installed that collect any data, and doesn't use a sim card. Because if you say you give a fuck about privacy, and use a modern android phone with OEM rom or an iPhone, you either don't understand what privacy is and shouldn't be talking about it in the first place, or you are a hypocrite.
- scrollaway 3y ago
  Someone can give a fuck about privacy in the areas they can, while not going overboard or trying too hard, you know. what you are describing is no true Scotsman nonsense. “You dgaf about privacy unless you wear a balaclava all the time”. It’s also possible they understand the trade off with privacy wrt, say, google and their isps/mobile providers, versus the trade off with random websites on the internet.
  - ActorNightly 3y ago
    There is no "areas" here. What you do online is tracked if you use windows, mac os on laptop or phone, or android. Who is tracking that is irrelevant. Claiming that its ok that Apple gets your data, a company who literally allowed the iCloud photo hacks to happen, but not 3d party advertisers is like olympic level mental gymnastics.
    - piaste 3y ago
      > Who is tracking that is irrelevant. It is absolutely relevant; it is arguably the most relevant question. It lies at the basis of the entire concept of "threat model" in security. The police wants to track you to investigate you as a suspect in a crime. Facebook wants to track you to know who you are talking to. Amazon wants to track you to learn what you might want to buy. The Chinese government wants to track you to know if you might work for or against it. And so on. I, like most people, give wildly different amounts of shit about every single one of these agents, and take different levels of precautions as a result.
      - ActorNightly 3y ago
        I don't buy the argument that you don't want Amazon or Facebook to track you, but you are ok with Apple or Google tracking you. In case its not clear, because Im really doubting that people have a good grasp of privacy here, when you buy an Iphone, it phones home quite a bit collecting pieces of data about you that Apple can and does use internally for their advertising purposes, and you cannot opt out of it.
        scrollaway 3y ago
        You don't have to buy it, I'm gonna give it to you for free: I don't want Facebook tracking me, because I don't like them and don't trust them. OTOH I don't care if Google tracks me because I am an actively paying user of Google on a contract. I also don't care if Apple tracks me because they have a much cleaner track record.
- germanier 3y ago
  I don't live in a heavily fortified home only accessible through a drawbridge but still give a fuck about the privacy of my little city flat that you could probably enter with a heavy kick. Modern society enables miracles.
  - ActorNightly 3y ago
    A more applicable analogy is that you want to have locks on your door to prevent unwanted visitors, but the people that built the building have a master key that they can come in whenever they want, take pictures, install cameras/microphones. But thats ok, because they are the only ones that are collecting data, and they say they are "privacy-first". But thanks for proving the part of "not understanding what privacy is" part of my post.
    - germanier 3y ago
      I have given my landlord a key recently so that he can check the smoke alarm and take the water meter reading while I'm at work. I trust that he didn't install a hidden camera even though nothing could have stopped him apart from "being a decent human being" and "not wanting to commit a crime". Not every protection needs to on a technological level. I'd rather live in a society where we have other tools available than one where I have to take each and every matter into my own hand. This is what my analogy showed.
      - ActorNightly 3y ago
        Your analogies are really poor. Not only do you not you understand the level to which Apple or Google or your carrier can read the things you do on your devices, and how little control you have over that, but you are ignoring things like the big celebrity iCloud hacks. For the sake of not playing an analogy war, let me just say this: if you use a modern device with OS made by Microsoft, Google or Apple (or derivative of), you are implicitly consenting to very large amount of personal data collection, which you have no control over. If you choose to trust those entities for whatever reason, thats totally fine, but your particular selection of trust isn't "correct" in the sense that it should apply to everyone, because it has no concrete objective basis. And therefore, you shouldn't base what you think the law should be on it.
- hammyhavoc 3y ago
  It all depends on your assumed threat model, but also not conflating privacy and security, but remembering that compromised privacy may also compromise security. Not everybody's requirements are the same.
Myrmornis 3y ago
When you say "many, many" I take that to mean "a substantial proportion" and I think you may be making the mistake of estimating your proportions from the population of people in tech forums, rather than from the global population of internet users.
- germanier 3y ago
  I know next to nothing about the "global population of internet users". I know a fair bit about the EU population and I can assure you that it's a very substantial proportion.
  - Myrmornis 3y ago
    I still suspect your sample is heavily biased towards university-educated / middle class people.
nonethewiser 3y ago
Yet here we are. People know what facebook is and still use it.

To anyone that doesn't agree with me, please show me your rooted android phone that has no popular apps installed that collect any data, and doesn't use a sim card. Because if you say you give a fuck about privacy, and use a modern android phone with OEM rom or an iPhone, you either don't understand what privacy is and shouldn't be talking about it in the first place, or you are a hypocrite.

scrollaway 3y ago
Someone can give a fuck about privacy in the areas they can, while not going overboard or trying too hard, you know. what you are describing is no true Scotsman nonsense. “You dgaf about privacy unless you wear a balaclava all the time”. It’s also possible they understand the trade off with privacy wrt, say, google and their isps/mobile providers, versus the trade off with random websites on the internet.
- ActorNightly 3y ago
  There is no "areas" here. What you do online is tracked if you use windows, mac os on laptop or phone, or android. Who is tracking that is irrelevant. Claiming that its ok that Apple gets your data, a company who literally allowed the iCloud photo hacks to happen, but not 3d party advertisers is like olympic level mental gymnastics.
  - piaste 3y ago
    > Who is tracking that is irrelevant. It is absolutely relevant; it is arguably the most relevant question. It lies at the basis of the entire concept of "threat model" in security. The police wants to track you to investigate you as a suspect in a crime. Facebook wants to track you to know who you are talking to. Amazon wants to track you to learn what you might want to buy. The Chinese government wants to track you to know if you might work for or against it. And so on. I, like most people, give wildly different amounts of shit about every single one of these agents, and take different levels of precautions as a result.
    - ActorNightly 3y ago
      I don't buy the argument that you don't want Amazon or Facebook to track you, but you are ok with Apple or Google tracking you. In case its not clear, because Im really doubting that people have a good grasp of privacy here, when you buy an Iphone, it phones home quite a bit collecting pieces of data about you that Apple can and does use internally for their advertising purposes, and you cannot opt out of it.
      - scrollaway 3y ago
        You don't have to buy it, I'm gonna give it to you for free: I don't want Facebook tracking me, because I don't like them and don't trust them. OTOH I don't care if Google tracks me because I am an actively paying user of Google on a contract. I also don't care if Apple tracks me because they have a much cleaner track record.
germanier 3y ago
I don't live in a heavily fortified home only accessible through a drawbridge but still give a fuck about the privacy of my little city flat that you could probably enter with a heavy kick. Modern society enables miracles.
- ActorNightly 3y ago
  A more applicable analogy is that you want to have locks on your door to prevent unwanted visitors, but the people that built the building have a master key that they can come in whenever they want, take pictures, install cameras/microphones. But thats ok, because they are the only ones that are collecting data, and they say they are "privacy-first". But thanks for proving the part of "not understanding what privacy is" part of my post.
  - germanier 3y ago
    I have given my landlord a key recently so that he can check the smoke alarm and take the water meter reading while I'm at work. I trust that he didn't install a hidden camera even though nothing could have stopped him apart from "being a decent human being" and "not wanting to commit a crime". Not every protection needs to on a technological level. I'd rather live in a society where we have other tools available than one where I have to take each and every matter into my own hand. This is what my analogy showed.
    - ActorNightly 3y ago
      Your analogies are really poor. Not only do you not you understand the level to which Apple or Google or your carrier can read the things you do on your devices, and how little control you have over that, but you are ignoring things like the big celebrity iCloud hacks. For the sake of not playing an analogy war, let me just say this: if you use a modern device with OS made by Microsoft, Google or Apple (or derivative of), you are implicitly consenting to very large amount of personal data collection, which you have no control over. If you choose to trust those entities for whatever reason, thats totally fine, but your particular selection of trust isn't "correct" in the sense that it should apply to everyone, because it has no concrete objective basis. And therefore, you shouldn't base what you think the law should be on it.
hammyhavoc 3y ago
It all depends on your assumed threat model, but also not conflating privacy and security, but remembering that compromised privacy may also compromise security. Not everybody's requirements are the same.

Myrmornis 3y ago

When you say "many, many" I take that to mean "a substantial proportion" and I think you may be making the mistake of estimating your proportions from the population of people in tech forums, rather than from the global population of internet users.

germanier 3y ago
I know next to nothing about the "global population of internet users". I know a fair bit about the EU population and I can assure you that it's a very substantial proportion.
- Myrmornis 3y ago
  I still suspect your sample is heavily biased towards university-educated / middle class people.

nonethewiser 3y ago

Yet here we are. People know what facebook is and still use it.