5 ms·

First time seeing this blog and it seems like they're trying too hard to give the benefit of doubt here. The list of concerns / drawbacks, particularly the reli

by glasss 4y ago

First time seeing this blog and it seems like they're trying too hard to give the benefit of doubt here. The list of concerns / drawbacks, particularly the reliability of performance concern, may be valid, but consumers deal with these already with every other battery powered device. A cheap USB charger or cable can dramatically effect your charging speed, a cheap AA battery may reduce your runtime, etc. It feels like the author is trying to not state the obvious that every comment here has pointed out - the batteries are lock ins, and expensive ones at that. For $100 I can buy modern electrical engineering marvels, or a run of the mill battery from Milwaukee. Or just a battery charger. It is this industry's way of making profits until they get regulated / legislated into being more consumer friendly, because I doubt they will do it on their own.

StrangeATractor 4y ago
This isn't a secret in construction, you buy one brand of cordless tools and stick with it. DeWalt sells tools so cheap you wonder if they're a loss leader. A single battery (one of the big 60V, 12Ah ones you use for circular saws and angle grinders) is $285 on Amazon. The biggest cordless circular is $178, the biggest grinder is $163. You'll want at least two of those batteries per day if you're doing any serious work. The real pain is when they they change the battery's interface, which will happen every so often. They stop selling the older stuff and eventually you'll have to upgrade and buy the whole product line all over again.
- bombcar 4y ago
  It's not quite as cut and dried as that, but it's getting closer as the brands expand. My contractor friend would refer to various tools as the "Brand" because he had one cordless tool from that brand because they had the one he needed. "Go grab the Makita", that kind of thing. From my experience it's the prosumer market that gets really rabid about their tool color. Do NOT cross the Red Army!
  - StrangeATractor 4y ago
    There are exceptions depending on what you're doing, but generally speaking 95% of your cordless tools will be one brand.
    - Arrath 4y ago
      And it'll often be for the advantage of a single warranty/service/repair contract as much as a unified battery logistics chain. When you have crews burning out a half dozen assorted hammer drills, recirc saws, electric rivet busters, etc. a week then the service side of the contract really comes in to play.
  - datpiff 4y ago
    > From my experience it's the prosumer market that gets really rabid about their tool color. Do NOT cross the Red Army! Turn-over is much lower. A professional may buy a whole line of tools from a single brand but with the expectation that they may replace them all in several years. This allows some level of comparison and movement between brands as quality varies over time. The part-timer/prosumer is locked in for a decade or more and ends up tying the tool brand to their identity...
    - bombcar 4y ago
      It can vary company-by-company, but many contractors are their own little company and use the tool they need; a $250 battery is nothing if they need to keep working. They also may not even bother warrantying a dead battery or tool unless it is painlessly easy (literally give it back to Home Depot when there to get something else), since the time spent isn't worth it.
      - JohnFen 4y ago
        > They also may not even bother warrantying a dead battery or tool unless it is painlessly easy I'm this way as an individual customer, to be honest. I ignore warranties entirely because they're rarely worth all of the hassle that comes with them.
- hgsgm 4y ago
  Why aren't ZYXNOO and BAJIP and all those Amazon brands selling cheap and modular replacements?
  - nikau 4y ago
    They are. I have some clone Makita batteries and tools that are fine. Your average tradie would rather just do a cash in hand extra job vs spending that time researching and waiting for some clone tools from China.
- mikecoles 3y ago
  Dewault has a 'sneaky' tactic. I just needed a battery. Tools run fine. You can't buy a new battery, of the legacy style, from the big box stores though. They do sell a battery adapter so you can use with their new style batteries with your existing tools. Now that you have a new battery to use with your old tools, might as well keep buying new tools to match that battery.
johnea 4y ago
Well said. > "until" they get regulated / legislated into being more consumer friendly, because I doubt they will do it on their own. In the US though, very unlikely that they will be regulated.
rektide 4y ago
The world after usb-pd looks so different. Everything used to be expensive bulky & proprietary. It turns out usb-pd works pretty damned well. It'll be a while before anything meaningful happens for this market though. 100w would power a huge range of tools but not all. 240w would be great, work for a huge range of tools with ton of overhead. But the lack probably has a much lower voltage that would need to be up-converted to 48v, then the power switching in the tool needs to handle higher voltage too (which I think is actually not a real concern, could actually help a lot). But more obviously, it's a question of form factors. Tools have shapes that conform to & support their packs. USB doesn't have any kind of a play here right now, only defines a connector, cable & how data & power are to be transmitted. It's hard to imagine getting out of this tar-pit. Whose going to start building more expensive packs that spit out standard 48v usb-pd? What hero would do that? Side note, some day I'd really love to see a much higher amperage USB connector. Usb-d should be able to do like 30a, 1.5kW at 48v. Big ask, but it's one potential exciting frontier I hope "universal" extends into. My other ask is for a longer range 5+ gbps USB4, but that seems maybe potentially harder, I dunno.
- maxerickson 4y ago
  Does it particularly make sense to link new DC power standards to USB? Like I expect I'd rather have Bluetooth control over stuff plugged into the wall vs having a combined communication/high(er) power cable.
  - rektide 4y ago
    I'd love for there to be some competition. Absolutely. This submission is about cordless power tools batteries, so that somewhat affects the scope. In general, cords can be super dangerous & limiting for power tools, so battery based has naturally really taken the heck over, for all kinds of good reasons. Even still, I think the questioning is fine & good, could apply to this segment. Bluetooth is a bit hard because of pairing. Where-as a physical connection is unmistakable & zero additional effort. I'd also point out, we're still bloody fucking awful, just dogshit terrible, about using USB. USB-hid has really nice specs for batteries & chargers to offer telemetry. Our wall chargers could report tons of stats on what they think is happening. Our batteries could self report all kind of stats. There's no good reason we have simply ignored the longstanding spec for so long, made such & continue to make such poor use of USB, other than abysmal expectations & abysmal delivery. (well, for a while, usb charging's high power modes only worked if there wasnt any data, and that was a dumb if valid reason). It would be great to see usb-pd batteries keep winning and wireless telemetry.
tchvil 4y ago
As pointed in the article, battery packs aren't that expensive. When my last of 3 Makita battery pack died I found reasonably priced battery holders with a PCB: https://a.aliexpress.com/_EjvvWY7 https://a.aliexpress.com/_EjvvWY7 10 high current LG 18650 cells per pack. Plus a cheap but good enough spot welder($65 I can reuse), some nickel strips and I ended up at about the same cost as the original ones on material alone.
- monkmartinez 4y ago
  No way it was close! I just did this on for a 6AH Makita. First of all, taking apart the pack... for science, the batteries were name brand but not the best and were under-rated capacity. Second, I shopped around and found LG MH1 INR 18650 3200mAh HD 10A for under $5 per cell. So my 5S2P (18v 6AH+) battery with BMS and new case was less than $70 shipped with damn fine cells. The cheapest knockoff amazon battery that works with Makita is about $50, but those are seriously sus in both cell type and BMS. Homedepot has the OG Makita 6ah at $200+. The only thing you need contemplate for DIY is the quality of the BMS. Don't charge batteries when you are not paying some attention.
StueyGuyd 4y ago
It's not that I wanted to give brands the benefit of the doubt, but that I believe there are other hurdles and significant obstacles independent of corporate profit considerations. Many consumers are familiar with the concept of Ah (amp-hours) as akin to a car's gas tank, where the more amp-hours a battery has, the longer it can power a device. If you buy a video camera, the brand's 4Ah battery should allow for double the recording time as their 2Ah battery. Right? Which would you rather buy, a 6Ah cordless power tool battery for $79, or a 5Ah battery for $89? The batteries are the same size and weight. Depending on the application, the 5Ah battery might outlast the 6Ah in use. You're at the home center and see three power tool batteries on the shelf - all are 18V and rated at 3Ah, but they're different physical sizes. Which is better? With a bit of research on your phone, you learn that the batteries are built with 5x 18650, 5x 21700, and 10x 18650 Li-ion battery cells, respectively. All three 3Ah batteries are the same price. Does this help you choose? Power tool battery selection is not as intuitive as looking at a 20W USB charger and simply knowing it will charge devices at a faster rate than a 5W charger. There are enough "what battery should I get?" questions in my inbox and messages folders, as well as all over online forums, for me to believe the confusion has gotten worse over the years as new overlapping technologies were introduced. Many users don't fully understand that there can be huge differences in power capabilities. A 1.3Ah battery and a 12Ah battery of the same voltage and cordless system are going to deliver very different levels of power. A lot of tool users learn this the hard way. It's not their fault, as a 12Ah battery might be simply advertised as delivering more than 9X the runtime. With many more options available, I'm sure many users will pair cheaper brand name batteries with pro-level tools and expect everything to work well together. Who will they blame for poor performance? Themselves and their choices? The tool brand? Or the battery brand? In my opinion, if user experience concerns can be addressed, and numerous technical obstacles flattened, companies "making profits until they get regulated" will be the easiest hurdle to overcome. If you want to better understand why replacement batteries cost so much, look at different brands' sales and promotions. The Makita XGT circular saw kit (GSR01M1) is $299 right now across authorized dealers, and you get a free extra battery. The same 4Ah battery (BL4040) is priced at $199 to $219, each. So that's $299 for the kit with a total of 2 batteries plus a saw, charger, and tool bag, or $398 for just 2 batteries. Based on this type of retail math, I'd say replacement battery prices are set to balance out the promos.

by glasss 4y ago

StrangeATractor 4y ago

This isn't a secret in construction, you buy one brand of cordless tools and stick with it. DeWalt sells tools so cheap you wonder if they're a loss leader. A single battery (one of the big 60V, 12Ah ones you use for circular saws and angle grinders) is $285 on Amazon. The biggest cordless circular is $178, the biggest grinder is $163. You'll want at least two of those batteries per day if you're doing any serious work. The real pain is when they they change the battery's interface, which will happen every so often. They stop selling the older stuff and eventually you'll have to upgrade and buy the whole product line all over again.

bombcar 4y ago
It's not quite as cut and dried as that, but it's getting closer as the brands expand. My contractor friend would refer to various tools as the "Brand" because he had one cordless tool from that brand because they had the one he needed. "Go grab the Makita", that kind of thing. From my experience it's the prosumer market that gets really rabid about their tool color. Do NOT cross the Red Army!
- StrangeATractor 4y ago
  There are exceptions depending on what you're doing, but generally speaking 95% of your cordless tools will be one brand.
  - Arrath 4y ago
    And it'll often be for the advantage of a single warranty/service/repair contract as much as a unified battery logistics chain. When you have crews burning out a half dozen assorted hammer drills, recirc saws, electric rivet busters, etc. a week then the service side of the contract really comes in to play.
- datpiff 4y ago
  > From my experience it's the prosumer market that gets really rabid about their tool color. Do NOT cross the Red Army! Turn-over is much lower. A professional may buy a whole line of tools from a single brand but with the expectation that they may replace them all in several years. This allows some level of comparison and movement between brands as quality varies over time. The part-timer/prosumer is locked in for a decade or more and ends up tying the tool brand to their identity...
  - bombcar 4y ago
    It can vary company-by-company, but many contractors are their own little company and use the tool they need; a $250 battery is nothing if they need to keep working. They also may not even bother warrantying a dead battery or tool unless it is painlessly easy (literally give it back to Home Depot when there to get something else), since the time spent isn't worth it.
    - JohnFen 4y ago
      > They also may not even bother warrantying a dead battery or tool unless it is painlessly easy I'm this way as an individual customer, to be honest. I ignore warranties entirely because they're rarely worth all of the hassle that comes with them.
hgsgm 4y ago
Why aren't ZYXNOO and BAJIP and all those Amazon brands selling cheap and modular replacements?
- nikau 4y ago
  They are. I have some clone Makita batteries and tools that are fine. Your average tradie would rather just do a cash in hand extra job vs spending that time researching and waiting for some clone tools from China.
mikecoles 3y ago
Dewault has a 'sneaky' tactic. I just needed a battery. Tools run fine. You can't buy a new battery, of the legacy style, from the big box stores though. They do sell a battery adapter so you can use with their new style batteries with your existing tools. Now that you have a new battery to use with your old tools, might as well keep buying new tools to match that battery.

johnea 4y ago

Well said. > "until" they get regulated / legislated into being more consumer friendly, because I doubt they will do it on their own. In the US though, very unlikely that they will be regulated.

rektide 4y ago

The world after usb-pd looks so different. Everything used to be expensive bulky & proprietary. It turns out usb-pd works pretty damned well. It'll be a while before anything meaningful happens for this market though. 100w would power a huge range of tools but not all. 240w would be great, work for a huge range of tools with ton of overhead. But the lack probably has a much lower voltage that would need to be up-converted to 48v, then the power switching in the tool needs to handle higher voltage too (which I think is actually not a real concern, could actually help a lot). But more obviously, it's a question of form factors. Tools have shapes that conform to & support their packs. USB doesn't have any kind of a play here right now, only defines a connector, cable & how data & power are to be transmitted. It's hard to imagine getting out of this tar-pit. Whose going to start building more expensive packs that spit out standard 48v usb-pd? What hero would do that? Side note, some day I'd really love to see a much higher amperage USB connector. Usb-d should be able to do like 30a, 1.5kW at 48v. Big ask, but it's one potential exciting frontier I hope "universal" extends into. My other ask is for a longer range 5+ gbps USB4, but that seems maybe potentially harder, I dunno.

maxerickson 4y ago
Does it particularly make sense to link new DC power standards to USB? Like I expect I'd rather have Bluetooth control over stuff plugged into the wall vs having a combined communication/high(er) power cable.
- rektide 4y ago
  I'd love for there to be some competition. Absolutely. This submission is about cordless power tools batteries, so that somewhat affects the scope. In general, cords can be super dangerous & limiting for power tools, so battery based has naturally really taken the heck over, for all kinds of good reasons. Even still, I think the questioning is fine & good, could apply to this segment. Bluetooth is a bit hard because of pairing. Where-as a physical connection is unmistakable & zero additional effort. I'd also point out, we're still bloody fucking awful, just dogshit terrible, about using USB. USB-hid has really nice specs for batteries & chargers to offer telemetry. Our wall chargers could report tons of stats on what they think is happening. Our batteries could self report all kind of stats. There's no good reason we have simply ignored the longstanding spec for so long, made such & continue to make such poor use of USB, other than abysmal expectations & abysmal delivery. (well, for a while, usb charging's high power modes only worked if there wasnt any data, and that was a dumb if valid reason). It would be great to see usb-pd batteries keep winning and wireless telemetry.

tchvil 4y ago

As pointed in the article, battery packs aren't that expensive. When my last of 3 Makita battery pack died I found reasonably priced battery holders with a PCB: https://a.aliexpress.com/_EjvvWY7 https://a.aliexpress.com/_EjvvWY7 10 high current LG 18650 cells per pack. Plus a cheap but good enough spot welder($65 I can reuse), some nickel strips and I ended up at about the same cost as the original ones on material alone.

monkmartinez 4y ago
No way it was close! I just did this on for a 6AH Makita. First of all, taking apart the pack... for science, the batteries were name brand but not the best and were under-rated capacity. Second, I shopped around and found LG MH1 INR 18650 3200mAh HD 10A for under $5 per cell. So my 5S2P (18v 6AH+) battery with BMS and new case was less than $70 shipped with damn fine cells. The cheapest knockoff amazon battery that works with Makita is about $50, but those are seriously sus in both cell type and BMS. Homedepot has the OG Makita 6ah at $200+. The only thing you need contemplate for DIY is the quality of the BMS. Don't charge batteries when you are not paying some attention.

StueyGuyd 4y ago

It's not that I wanted to give brands the benefit of the doubt, but that I believe there are other hurdles and significant obstacles independent of corporate profit considerations. Many consumers are familiar with the concept of Ah (amp-hours) as akin to a car's gas tank, where the more amp-hours a battery has, the longer it can power a device. If you buy a video camera, the brand's 4Ah battery should allow for double the recording time as their 2Ah battery. Right? Which would you rather buy, a 6Ah cordless power tool battery for $79, or a 5Ah battery for $89? The batteries are the same size and weight. Depending on the application, the 5Ah battery might outlast the 6Ah in use. You're at the home center and see three power tool batteries on the shelf - all are 18V and rated at 3Ah, but they're different physical sizes. Which is better? With a bit of research on your phone, you learn that the batteries are built with 5x 18650, 5x 21700, and 10x 18650 Li-ion battery cells, respectively. All three 3Ah batteries are the same price. Does this help you choose? Power tool battery selection is not as intuitive as looking at a 20W USB charger and simply knowing it will charge devices at a faster rate than a 5W charger. There are enough "what battery should I get?" questions in my inbox and messages folders, as well as all over online forums, for me to believe the confusion has gotten worse over the years as new overlapping technologies were introduced. Many users don't fully understand that there can be huge differences in power capabilities. A 1.3Ah battery and a 12Ah battery of the same voltage and cordless system are going to deliver very different levels of power. A lot of tool users learn this the hard way. It's not their fault, as a 12Ah battery might be simply advertised as delivering more than 9X the runtime. With many more options available, I'm sure many users will pair cheaper brand name batteries with pro-level tools and expect everything to work well together. Who will they blame for poor performance? Themselves and their choices? The tool brand? Or the battery brand? In my opinion, if user experience concerns can be addressed, and numerous technical obstacles flattened, companies "making profits until they get regulated" will be the easiest hurdle to overcome. If you want to better understand why replacement batteries cost so much, look at different brands' sales and promotions. The Makita XGT circular saw kit (GSR01M1) is $299 right now across authorized dealers, and you get a free extra battery. The same 4Ah battery (BL4040) is priced at $199 to $219, each. So that's $299 for the kit with a total of 2 batteries plus a saw, charger, and tool bag, or $398 for just 2 batteries. Based on this type of retail math, I'd say replacement battery prices are set to balance out the promos.