13 ms·

ManyCam dishonored my lifetime license

298 points by KingOfCoders 4y ago

nelox 4y ago
The OP states “the reason I tell all my CTO coachees they need everything in writing from their boss in their contract, a new boss will probably only honor what is written down, not spoken promises.” However, he seems to have ignored his own advice and not understood the ManyCam EULA. “… This license is in effect until one of the parties terminates the license. You may terminate the license by no longer using the ManyCam software or web services. Visicom Media Inc may terminate the license at any time for any reason. Visicom Media Inc may change this software license agreement at any time. The license agreement may also be terminated if you violate any of the terms and conditions of this agreement.” “… ManyCam may change from a free service to a pay service at any time and vice versa, and may change its pricing structure at any time in any way. ManyCam may discontinue its service at any time for any reason. ManyCam may charge for any support. ManyCam may limit software features or access to certain parts of the ManyCam website with no warning or notice and with no liability. ManyCam may stop service either temporarily or finally any time for any reason with no warning or notice and with no liability.“ https://web.archive.org/web/20220517072603/https://manycam.com/tos/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220517072603/https://manycam.c...
- Graziano_M 4y ago
  Visicom is the new owner, right? So that's a new policy, as in not the one he agreed to when he signed up for a lifetime license.
  - undecisive 4y ago
    No, Visicom is the old owner, as per the quote in the original post: “ManyCam is now under new ownership. […] Visicom Media stands by the Lifetime customers and will continue to support them by arranging with the new owner for a total of two years of free subscription."
    - Graziano_M 4y ago
      I misread. But then I got all these upvotes for nothing.
      - undecisive 4y ago
        Yeah, it's awkwardly worded. I must have read the same sentence 3 times before I realised what it was saying. Looking at the latest version of the TOS, the new company is operating under the name "ManyCam ULC"
- nicbou 4y ago
  In Germany, such lopsided agreements are illegal and ineffective.
- tescocles 4y ago
  I don't know the contract law in the relevant (presumably US) jurisdiction, but surely an asterisk in the contract that's basically: Lifetime perpetual licence!* *but we can cancel any time without any penalty lol teehee is not enforceable? I don't think it would fly in court where I live, it doesn't matter if it was in a signed contract if it's preposterously unfair. edit: and I don't even necessarily think a lifetime licence is something a company should offer, they are quite unfair on the developer. It's a big commitment to say you'll support some software in perpetuity. But the solution to that is to not offer a lifetime licence. It's not to just outright lie and say you are when you aren't. And if you're one company looking to buy another, you buy those contracts along with it and should take that into account in your due diligence.
  - leokennis 4y ago
    Exactly. If this was really legal, I do not understand why Ford would not market it's newest pick-up truck as "now with flying ability!" and then just add in small print "it can not actually fly at all".
  - rrobukef 4y ago
    On the other hand, airlines have had major trouble with lifelong tickets sold in the eighties.
  - hinkley 4y ago
    Saying Lifetime when the license says when we feel like it is lying. Enforceable in court or not, they’re liars. Liars surrounded by a sea of liars, but still liars.
- undecisive 4y ago
  Yeah. Lots of red flags in that EULA, including bits that don't seem to make any sense: "You agree any legal dispute involving ManyCam services and software must take place in the state or federal courts in Montreal, Quebec." and "You consent to exclusive jurisdiction and venue in Montreal, Quebec and waive the defense of forum non convenience." and yet "If a U.S. court finds any part of this license agreement unenforceable then the remainder of the agreement will continue intact and in full force and effect." Basically, it's your typical "We have rights, you have no rights" kind of contract. If the OP had even briefly scanned that "agreement" (and let's face it, most of us don't) I'm sure they would have realised that their "lifetime" license had no legs.
- Pxtl 4y ago
  While the contract would mean they have the right to terminate the "lifetime license", it would also mean that the phrasing "lifetime license" is false advertising isn't it?
  - emodendroket 4y ago
    I’m not sure, since “lifetime warranties” are never actually perpetual either.
    - jfk13 4y ago
      Well, they're presumably good for the lifetime of the product. Oh, it failed after 6 months? Tough... that was obviously the limit of its lifetime.
- jnsie 4y ago
  The law deals with what is reasonable and 'reasonable expectations' a whole lot. From my IANAL perspective it is not a reasonable expectation that the average end user is proficient enough in the law to understand the implications of the legalese in the EULA. EULAs are thrust upon us, rarely read, and rarer still read by those with enough legal expertise to fully understand the implications of the text and to 'know what they don't know'
- hansvm 4y ago
  The EULA may or may not be enforceable, but even if it is they're still liable for the real damages incurred by the false advertising causing people to make that purchase. It's kind of like if you buy a car as-is but the seller goes out of their way to knowingly lie about the condition of the car -- saying it's fit to drive when the brake lines have a leak or something. If there's any evidence then the courts will usually side with the buyer.
  - BizarroLand 4y ago
    For real. Contracts are not ironclad unbreakable deals with the devil even in America. The question is, will you step up and fight for your fair portion? If the company has 100 diehard customers affected by this and 99 of them don't fight it, then it's easy to appease the 1 while still coming out ahead.
causi 4y ago
Yep. Happened to me with AVS Video Converter and Cerberus phone security.
no1groyp 4y ago
Vuescan sucks too.
retrobox 4y ago
I had a lifetime license with a forum software company that switched to a subscription model. I questioned the fairness, but they claimed the new product was built on an entirely new foundation different, the forum utilises that foundation, and that's why the lifetime license no longer applies. Since then, I've been skeptical of lifetime licenses. Business model pivots often leave early adopters with a negative impression due to poor handling of the switch
Someone1234 4y ago
I just want to state outright that OP was wronged, and I side with them. That being said; I dislike both full subscription (i.e. breaks on expiration) and lifetime licenses. Subscriptions are too expensive for software that rarely gets major investment and lifetime licenses are dishonest (e.g. company cannot work for free, so their funded is based on unlimited growth, which isn't realistic for most). My current favorite business model is the "You're buying the current version and [years] of updates." Then typically you'll get some discount to renew your "[years] more of updates." This incentivizes them to deliver value, or you'll just stick with whatever version you purchased. Your software keeps working no matter what ("lifetime"). One example of someone who does this well is Jetbrains, but there are several companies. Obviously subscription is the only option if they're delivering most of the value via a web-service of some kind (e.g. ChatGPT Plus).
- lkschubert8 4y ago
  Isn't pay per usage viable for value via web or does that fall under subscription? I tend to think of subscription as a monthly/annual payment for access.
  - Retric 4y ago
    Pay per use has terrible incentives for pure software. It’s more reasonable if there’s an end product at the end. But you don’t want to discourage people using your 3D printing service because your bundling software access that people might not need.
- notwhereyouare 4y ago
  that's how the audible ripper I use works. I buy 1 version and get updates for a year and then i'm stuck at that specific version
  - stronglikedan 4y ago
    And one of my favorite pieces of software, Sublime Text.
lightedman 4y ago
A program called Camfrog did the exact same thing. Lifetime codes got flipped into a new subscription system. Realistically, this is fraud.
Pxtl 4y ago
It's crazy how many people in this thread just accept this as normal and fine. Is the rule of law completely dead?
trevvr 4y ago
I feel complete sympathy. I have a "perpetual" license for Minitab 15. Can I install it in a VM? Yes. Can I activate it? Nope? Can it be used without activation? Nope! So it's useless and has been now for years. Minitab's solution was to offer me a 10% discount on a new pay by month license. No thanks, I'm off to pandas and for quick investigations I'm using Wizard for OSX which is absolutely blow your socks off amazing the first time you slice and dice a record set and do comparative analysis with them looking over your shoulder. https://www.wizardmac.com https://www.wizardmac.com
great_reversal 4y ago
Nearly a decade ago, transitapp.com had a premium app that costed $2.99 to buy. Most users opted for free options, but I saw the value in the app and bought it. The company later switched to a free model, and then more recently a subscription model. I tried getting customer service to honour the lifetime license, but they only offered 1 year of subscription for their Royal plan. I've had other lifetime licenses that have been honoured even after those companies shifted to subscriptions. I always feel bad using the Transit app because of that experience. Wouldn't recommend.
ivanmontillam 4y ago
Slightly related to the topic, but another way to screw up the customer it's when a web hosting company offers "free, unlimited shared hosting." We all know it's technically impossible. Once your typical-day WordPress weighs more than 5 GB, they'll be calling you urgently to split it up or increase the supposedly unlimited plan. Wasn't it unlimited? We all know unlimited server resources don't exist, especially not for $3/month.
emodendroket 4y ago
My general belief is that anyone with a subscription service who offers a “lifetime license” will probably eventually welsh, so I never spend my money on them. Doesn’t excuse it but this is an example.
- bookofjoe 4y ago
  Concur. Same thing as cable/phone companies saying "Your rate will never go up if you subscribe now." That ALWAYS proves false.
rarkins 4y ago
Visicom really pumped the ManyCam lifetime upsells. I found 15 emails over an 18 month period in 2020-2021 with them pitching lifetime (which I eventually bought). An example email text they used is: > Upgrade now to ManyCam Studio Lifetime for only $39 and get access to all the future versions and updates, forever! What they presented to the user was unequivocal. In a just world, the company who sold ManyCam (Visicom Media) should not be able to get away with this.
- rarkins 4y ago
  This seems relevant: https://contracts.justia.com/companies/peerstream-inc-2967/contract/275473/ https://contracts.justia.com/companies/peerstream-inc-2967/c...
- rarkins 4y ago
  From https://www.marketscreener.com/quote/stock/PALTALK-INC-111314206/news/PALTALK-INC-MANAGEMENT-S-DISCUSSION-AND-ANALYSIS-OF-FINANCIAL-CONDITION-AND-RESULTS-OF-OPERATIONS-43324956/ https://www.marketscreener.com/quote/stock/PALTALK-INC-11131... > On June 30, 2022, we entered into a License Agreement with Visicom (the "License Agreement"), pursuant to which we agreed to distribute, at the discretion and direction of Visicom, a specified number of ManyCam software updates to certain license holders to whom Visicom has previously granted a "lifetime" license to ManyCam software. As consideration for distributing the software updates, Visicom paid us an initial upfront nonrefundable payment of $65,000. The License Agreement provides that Visicom may purchase additional licenses at prices specified therein. Other than providing a one-time, limited license to Visicom for the distribution of ManyCam software updates pursuant to the terms of the License Agreement, we do not have any obligation to provide support or service to the licensee end users.
- emodendroket 4y ago
  The fact they were pumping these for only $39 kind of suggests the reason they never should have made such a commitment in the first place.
  - mh- 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
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uni_baconcat 4y ago
There's an app I bought on my phone a few years ago. Someday, they moved to a subscription model, and the app became free to download. But I like their method because I'm still able to use the app and get updates. All the features they launched before are available to me, and only new features added after the switch are locked and require an active subscription. With the trend of new business models, my best expectation is that I could 'own' everything up to the time I made the purchase. I am not expecting more, but please don't take away what I have paid for.
josephcsible 4y ago
This is now the third high-profile occurrence of this exact thing in just a few months. The last two were Filmora <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34199153 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34199153> <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34177057 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34177057> and mIRC <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33864660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33864660>.
harrisonjackson 4y ago
Companies that acquire lifetime users should have a budget set aside for refunding these users.
dangerboysteve 4y ago
The OP writes, "ManyCam is a software that does several things, I needed it to be able to use a webcam in two applications at the same time.". I believe the free and open source OBS studio does this. I understand this is not the main point of the article.
- i-use-nixos-btw 4y ago
  Yeah, this is where I’m completely lost. You don’t need to do much use a webcam in two applications at the same time. If you want some additional features VLC can handle it easily. If you want the bells and whistles then OBS. All FOSS. So I don’t understand the value add - is it used for more than is being described, or if there’s legitimately a piece of software that does something so trivial yet people are actually paying for it.
sowbug 4y ago
A "lifetime" purchase is really the lifetime of the product or its manufacturer, whichever dies first. I've never heard of this company, but it died when it got bought. I'm not saying this as a lawyer or having scrutinized the license terms. It's more of a life lesson. Before you fork over your one-time fee, ask yourself: are they offering a great deal because they're a great company with a great product and a great business model? Or are they trying to hoover up money because they're on life support and the bills are coming due? Side note: one company seems to have gotten this balance right. There's a music product called FL Studio that sells lifetime licenses. I've had mine for over 20 years, and it's still updated. The license was expensive (good to keep the company going), they sell DLC (good incentive to keep the product fresh), and the product itself is inherently a platform around which a strong community has formed (good because the company knows their product effort translates directly into word-of-mouth advertising).
jollyllama 4y ago
So there was a change in ownership that precipitated this. I can understand the author was wronged. But what if things were done slightly differently, i.e. the owner of ManyCam EOL'd the product, sold his business, and a "new" equivalent product were released? Technically, the agreement wouldn't be violated in the same way, but the effect would be the same. Would the author be just as upset, or would this be more understandable?
- OkayPhysicist 4y ago
  I think it would still be irritating, but significantly less so. When a company buys another out and continues using a piece of software's name, they're doing so because that brand has built up some level of awareness and goodwill with the market. That awareness and goodwill is directly the result of its existing, satisfied customers. Alienating those satisfied customers while still cashing in on the reputation they built for you violates not only a basic sense of fairness, but probably in this case contractual obligations. On the other hand, if you strip the existing software for parts, and put out something substantially different under new branding, at least you're giving something up.
  - jollyllama 4y ago
    Yes, the branding was the thing I was not accounting for.
AlwaysRock 4y ago
I get very wary of lifetime licenses because when companies start offering them it often means they are scrambling for cash. The lifetime of the product might be six months or less from when you purchase.
nolan879 4y ago
in 2015 I bought a lifetime license for SpeedDial2 Pro, but in 2021 they switched to a yearly subscription model to sustain upkeep and development. I am thankful that their team has grandfathered in lifetime licenses for use of the core feature set. I believe the new features that came after the subscription model are only for the new subscribers.
henriquez 4y ago
Remember Google gave early adopters free "lifetime" subscriptions to their Google Workspaces for Business (aka gmail for domain names) and then pulled the rug out a year ago? If Google can get away with this shit then it's normalized in our culture that nothing corporations promise is true, pray they don't alter the terms further.
- danpalmer 4y ago
  The important bit here is "free". While it wasn't a great move, nothing was paid for so there's no contract. Also I'm not sure it was ever called "lifetime" (I can't find that), it looks like it was just "grandfathering" old users in to a free plan. I think that's a materially different situation to selling lifetime licences and then reneging on that.
cjbgkagh 4y ago
Edit: reading some of the comments it seems that the license was offered with perpetual free future update, so backports would not be needed. In that case the author does have a legitimate grievance. Though these rug pulls are so common they should be expected. Lifetime of bug fixes and back ports, that is ridiculous. He is still free to use his software in a VM. Maintaining old versions like this is super expensive and is generally only done for customers that are paying a lot of money for that service. You basically need a whole second dev team for back-ports. Usually this is only done for government or industrial type stuff where the software is certified for a particular version. They pay a lot of money for that service, people who don’t need pinned versions are far better off with a subscription. As far as I can tell no licenses were revoked, the author is still able to use his old versions and thus this is a total non issue. I’ve personally been through the process of shifting customers from a perpetual license to a subscription model. Some did ask us to maintain old versions indefinitely for them but to explained to them that wouldn’t be viable without charging for that and since so few people wanted old versions maintained that cost would be amortized over fewer customers and would be much more expensive that simply updating. It’s not just one old version that needs updating it’s N, and if the fix depends on a new feature, well that would have to back-ported as well, it’s a total insane mess. I would ask the customer what their reasons for pinning to a version and make sure we didn’t break those reasons in new versions. I have some customers still using V1 from 14 years ago and they’re still happy with it.
freedude 4y ago
"Coming back to customers. Do you invest in extracting short term money from customers? Or do you invest in long term relations. In the case of ManyCam they could have sold me add-ons that feel like they are worth it. By honoring the lifetime license the likelihood of me buying from them increases. It is the same as from the detour. In the beginning it’s about getting traction, then about getting money. And then the key to growth is retention. If you want to grow your customer base, the first thing is to prevent customers leaving. If you fill water in a bucket with a hole - something I’ve seen in to many startups on how they use marketing without product market fit - then after some time the bucket is empty when you stop pouring. So don’t make your customers run away." When I was in high school I had an opportunity to learn customer service from one of the greatest businessmen that lived. My grandpa, the produce farmer and peach orchardist. He owned and operated the largest peach orchard in Oregon at the time and had customers that had been returning to his orchard for a lifetime. Why, would they keep coming back? Because he made a produced a final product that was so sweet and juicy the flavors would explode in your mouth and the juice would run down you arm and drip off your elbow. Because they wanted to support a family man that was dedicated to providing a good living for his family, who also worked for him. Because they wanted to get out of the city and see, for the briefest of moments, what is was like in the fresh air and sunshine of the Oregon countryside. Because they wanted the opportunity to harvest the food they were going to eat and choose what they wanted for themselves. and many other reasons... He would talk with customers he would see only once or twice a year and discuss the topics of the day in a down to earth way that only a farmer can express. And they would keep coming back... Don't run off your customers. They are a business' most valuable asset. If you want to know more about customer service and how it used to be, read Les Schwab's book, "Pride in Performance: Keep It Going".
- Jiro 4y ago
  >Because they wanted to support a family man that was dedicated to providing a good living for his family, who also worked for him. If you want to give someone money based on whether they deserve it, rather than in a market transaction based on the value of the goods they are selling, I'm pretty sure there are better charities around than "pick the nearest produce farmer".
mthoms 4y ago
Advanced Custom Fields is one of the must-have WordPress plugins for anyone who works with WP professionally. They handled this like champs; Upon moving to a subscription model, all existing lifetime license holders continued to have their license honored. 100%. It was quite refreshing, actually.
sgtnoodle 4y ago
Sort of reminds me of IAR's compilers for embedded systems. Their pricing models only seem to hurt their business by irritating their customers. As our company grew, it became more cost effective, less stressful, and less risky to port our code base over to GCC than to keep dealing with increasingly more contrived licenses.
deleted 4y ago
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JoeAltmaier 4y ago
I want to say "I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'm selling, why not buy that too!" But in software, so often there's no significant cost to lifetime subscriptions. Then it's just bastardy to revoke them.
effingwewt 4y ago
I've had apps/games I paid for suddenly change to IAP/subscription and completely screw everyone who purchased the original. Square Enix screwed over android users who'd paid 20/game for the Final Fantasy series (I had purchased them all at one point), and for no reason deprecated the 'old versions' and released new ones (with zero updates/changes to the apps) and charged the full price again. They never updated the original apps, the same bugs persisted for years, they finally update just to charge again. I forget the publisher but Titan Quest on Android did the same thing. Shifted to a 'legendary edition' and screwed all original purchasers. Enough people complained that they released the add-ons for the old version at a higher price. Now I just buy games on Switch or steam. Can't even re-buy the games on switch as after the SE screwing FF7 remake and then android apps I'm done giving them money. So back to emulators to play the classics before IAPs. Feel like everything just gets worse instead of the better I'd always imagined =(
dblohm7 4y ago
See also: SlySoft AnyDVD
wowyallsuck 4y ago
Has any company’s “lifetime” license lasted more than, say 5 years? 10? (I mean for software that is updated or requires a server of course). I like the jetbrains model well enough.
- goblinux 4y ago
  Industrial software perpetual licenses are really perpetual. Those things will outlast the company that wrote them and they don’t have claw-back mechanisms
- msravi 4y ago
  I bought Turboscan Pro by Piksoft sometime in 2016 and it's been one of my most used apps. Still works great. Still gets the latest updates.
- mattl 4y ago
  I've been receiving issues for my lifetime subscription to 2600 Magazine for well over 25 years.
- fryry 4y ago
  I bought a lifetime Plex subscription in 2016 and it's still working
- iamsaitam 4y ago
  No Man's Sky seems to have provided such a thing, taking into account all the updates with 0 paid DLCs.
- papruapap 4y ago
  I think there was a guy that bought a lifetime 1st class plane ticket for 10.000 dollars and used for like 20 years.
- shaicoleman 4y ago
  Total Commander was first released in Sep/1993, almost 30 years ago. It's still updated regularly, and all upgrades are free. (Total Commander is a dual-pane file manager for Windows)
xattt 4y ago
Wondering the last few years how long my Plex lifetime pass will last now.
- andix 4y ago
  The lifetime license is the same price as 3 years. Lifetime licenses are a lie anyway, nothing lasts forever. But if they cancel my „lifetime license“ before 3 or 5 years elapsed, I will be very, very angry.
  - 29083011397778 4y ago
    I wouldn't worry too much, considering my Plex pass (that I bought on sale, no less) is still good, 12(?) years on. Hell, Plex got dropped from my de-Googled phone before they ditched Lifetime users. I changed email providers before they ditched Lifetime users. Plex could renege tomorrow, but they've absolutely earned the benefit of the doubt in my opinion.
    - andix 4y ago
      I also don’t worry too much, that’s why I got the lifetime pass instead of a yearly subscription.
- RajT88 4y ago
  I bought lifetime licenses for the other competitors of Plex: TVersity, PlayOn, Twonky. Twonky currently is the only one I'm using, but all of them seem to respect the lifetime licenses! They've moved on to newer versions which use subscription models, so I don't get new features. Twonky still offers old version downloads (which is nice), but I'm not sure the others do. Honestly, I'm not sure I need any of this software anymore now that VLC is available on Android, Xbox, etc. and supports reading off SMB shares.
  - xattt 4y ago
    > Twonky Twonky (running on a WRT350n in ~2010) was the first media server that got me on the path to Plex. Glad to hear it’s still kicking.
planede 4y ago
Isn't this just breach of contract, plain and simple? Change of ownership should have little to do with it.
- KMnO4 4y ago
  I imagine this is one of those extremely common situations where the law doesn’t matter. Even if you are entitled to some compensation, how are you going to get it? The only recourse is taking them to court which will end up costing your time, money, and sanity.
  - planede 4y ago
    I think it could be an easyish case for small claims. Bought software at X date, used it for Y years, expected to use it for a further Z years in professional career, and now you can only use it for 2 further years, instead of Z. Get atleast a refund for the years that you won't be able to use.
    - SturgeonsLaw 4y ago
      Cost of lifetime license: $39 Time used so far: 4 years Time remaining with new license: 2 years Time lost due to license change: 20 years Damages awarded to the plaintiff: $30
      - hansvm 4y ago
        Court fees: $70
        planede 4y ago
        Could be recovered in a winning case, right?
        hansvm 4y ago
        Depends, but often yes
SillyUsername 4y ago
Fastmail.fm also pulled this one, although I got a good 10 years out of it plus 3 years free subscription after it was announced. Whichever way you look at it, that's plenty of time to move, or indicator of a good business model that means the company will remain in business and I won't lose my mail (and as long as they don't jack prices when it runs out).
qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
The problem with such betrayal is, that companies names are all but smoke and mirrors by now. The reputational damage should be tracking with the leading employees. One customer betrayal travels along with the manager who caused it, to whatever company s/he touches. No matter how the company is named, no matter how much branding, one linked in api roll call later you know what you got.
- nebula8804 4y ago
  This is a great idea! A while back I had an idea to maybe scrape Linkedin(or download one of their numerous dumps) to help "track" executive movement from company to company and set alerts if I use products from the new company so I can have a heads up before they inevitably turn to shit. Alternatively, I was also looking to expand this to when companies get bought out by those vulture capital "management" firms as they will start to squeeze costs. The Hackers of the 90s dreamed about software being an equalizing force between the powerful and the powerless...well this is one area that can definitely help(at least in the short term). Your idea sounds like something that independent journalism can pick up or some non profit organization that exposes these kinds of things. Of course I'm sure someone will go after them sooner or later.
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    Can’t wait for the social credit score determining people’s career prospects!
    - freeone3000 4y ago
      People must be held accountable for their actions; if it cannot be through self-governance, their reputation must meet needs.
      - fnordpiglet 4y ago
        Take them to court. File a grievance. But opening individuals to ruin by internet trolls for lulz, or worse making everyone’s life dictated by collaborative filtering - there’s no good to come of it. Human lives aren’t like product reviews. Scarlet lettering people isn’t a good idea - maybe it works for some, but there will be a lot of innocent people destroyed along the way. Or, people who made unethical decisions at some point in their life and realized their mistake and have reformed. A society of perpetual punishment isn’t a humane society, especially without any review or recourse just anonymous voting.
MrGilbert 4y ago
Happy Scale, a weight tracking app I really enjoy, had the opposite example: I bought a full license for some bucks some years ago, and later they decided to switch to a subscription based model to ensure funding. Instead of going the "hey, here is a new version of the app, you need to subscribe now", they explicitly included a thank-you note directed at everyone that bought the "Premium In-App Purchase" at the beginning, stating that nothing will change for existing Premium Users, that invested in the app right from the start. I definitely share the tone of the article, and cannot understand the reasoning behind such a decision. The fact that I read "MandyCam" instead of "ManyCam" at first, and was wondering what that kind of article is doing here, is just the anecdotal cherry on top.
- pridkett 4y ago
  Blink Shell for iOS did something similar. I was very pleased - especially as I don’t use the app super often, but it’s really handy when I need it for 30 seconds here and there. Now, because I have the “Blink Classic Plan”, I won’t get every new feature they introduce, but I won’t lose access for my original use case, which is great. Definitely a nice touch from companies looking to build a community.
- flrngbl 4y ago
  Ultimate Guitar did something similar. The premium account that I bought almost a decade ago got transformed into a free and unlimited premium subscription when they changed their business model some years ago. Overall that worked out pretty well for me, because the new model includes a ton more than what I paid for initially.
- MoSattler 4y ago
  I mean as far as apps go - happy scale has been top-notch, in terms of value delivered AND business practices. Been a happy subscriber for years.
- elbigbad 4y ago
  BrainFM (or Brain.FM) (which I really like for focus work time, and sleeping), did this. In 2016 I spent a lot for a one time purchase lifetime unlimited and years later they moved to monthly subscription and continue to honor the lifetime purchase I made. Very happy about this and still use it regularly.
sph 4y ago
They are usually called "Lifetime for now, but there is no law that forbids us from changing the terms later down the line" license, but it's shortened to just Lifetime license for convenience. Don't trust any lifetime agreement. And conversely, anyone that sells lifetime licenses to me sounds really naive and that they have no idea what they're doing. It's not a sign of a mature business.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
jawns 4y ago
I treat all lifetime guarantees and lifetime licenses the way I treat employee stock options, as predicated on the company continuing to perform well. And my priors for that assumption lead me to be fairly skeptical and build in a certain amount of risk. Then I weigh that risk against the potential upside and the cost to buy. This seems like an exercise a CTO should have down pat.
Havoc 4y ago
The part that blows my mind is they found someone willing to click send on a "life-time is now two years" mail. I personally couldn't stomach that & I'm definitely no paragon of virtue.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- unsupp0rted 4y ago
  One of my clients has admin staff that would click send on "decapitate a random person in the world" if the boss tells them to.
  - porkbeer 4y ago
    Maybe dont work for demonstrably unethical clients.
    - unsupp0rted 4y ago
      The client business isn't unethical. Their admin staff are human robots though: zero abstract thinking or self-direction.
      - TheCoelacanth 4y ago
        Corporations are AIs that use humans for computation.
        unsupp0rted 4y ago
        Indeed. A corporation could pass the Turing test, but we might consider it psychopathic or at minimum sociopathic.
RugnirViking 4y ago
reminds me of games like rocket league that I once paid for, which have now gone free to play and nag and beg me to buy "premium subscription". Not on your nelly. Its infinitely worse than never having done it at all.
- richrichardsson 4y ago
  I can understand you being pissed having paid for it, and I don't want to come across as a simp, but... if you play regularly enough to advance through the "rocket pass" you earn enough credits to pay the next season's pass. I only ever paid that one off £7.99 or whatever it was and always get far enough through. I guess it's a tax on people who either not very good or don't play often enough. Still sucks that going from paid product to "freemium" there wasn't some kind of "thank you" for having been an early supporter.
  - kevincox 4y ago
    I don't think the problem is I paid for it and now it is free. That is not a big deal to me (but a small thank you something would be nice). The bigger issue is that they degraded the game because of the free players and subjected those who paid to the same ads and noise that you wouldn't expect from a free game. For example I paid for TF2 and don't really care that it is free now. They do give me an occasional crate to tempt me to buy a key but it is fairly unobtrusive (and I think they had that before it went free anyways). If I was asked to buy stuff after every game I would be quite upset and would like my money back.
    - egoisticalgoat 4y ago
      I've had the same experience with other games that went F2P. If they at least upgraded customers who previously paid for the game to some kind of legacy ad-free version or something I'd be much more okay with it.

298 points by KingOfCoders 4y ago

The OP states “the reason I tell all my CTO coachees they need everything in writing from their boss in their contract, a new boss will probably only honor what is written down, not spoken promises.” However, he seems to have ignored his own advice and not understood the ManyCam EULA. “… This license is in effect until one of the parties terminates the license. You may terminate the license by no longer using the ManyCam software or web services. Visicom Media Inc may terminate the license at any time for any reason. Visicom Media Inc may change this software license agreement at any time. The license agreement may also be terminated if you violate any of the terms and conditions of this agreement.” “… ManyCam may change from a free service to a pay service at any time and vice versa, and may change its pricing structure at any time in any way. ManyCam may discontinue its service at any time for any reason. ManyCam may charge for any support. ManyCam may limit software features or access to certain parts of the ManyCam website with no warning or notice and with no liability. ManyCam may stop service either temporarily or finally any time for any reason with no warning or notice and with no liability.“ https://web.archive.org/web/20220517072603/https://manycam.com/tos/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220517072603/https://manycam.c...

Graziano_M 4y ago
Visicom is the new owner, right? So that's a new policy, as in not the one he agreed to when he signed up for a lifetime license.
- undecisive 4y ago
  No, Visicom is the old owner, as per the quote in the original post: “ManyCam is now under new ownership. […] Visicom Media stands by the Lifetime customers and will continue to support them by arranging with the new owner for a total of two years of free subscription."
  - Graziano_M 4y ago
    I misread. But then I got all these upvotes for nothing.
    - undecisive 4y ago
      Yeah, it's awkwardly worded. I must have read the same sentence 3 times before I realised what it was saying. Looking at the latest version of the TOS, the new company is operating under the name "ManyCam ULC"
nicbou 4y ago
In Germany, such lopsided agreements are illegal and ineffective.
tescocles 4y ago
I don't know the contract law in the relevant (presumably US) jurisdiction, but surely an asterisk in the contract that's basically: Lifetime perpetual licence!* *but we can cancel any time without any penalty lol teehee is not enforceable? I don't think it would fly in court where I live, it doesn't matter if it was in a signed contract if it's preposterously unfair. edit: and I don't even necessarily think a lifetime licence is something a company should offer, they are quite unfair on the developer. It's a big commitment to say you'll support some software in perpetuity. But the solution to that is to not offer a lifetime licence. It's not to just outright lie and say you are when you aren't. And if you're one company looking to buy another, you buy those contracts along with it and should take that into account in your due diligence.
- leokennis 4y ago
  Exactly. If this was really legal, I do not understand why Ford would not market it's newest pick-up truck as "now with flying ability!" and then just add in small print "it can not actually fly at all".
- rrobukef 4y ago
  On the other hand, airlines have had major trouble with lifelong tickets sold in the eighties.
- hinkley 4y ago
  Saying Lifetime when the license says when we feel like it is lying. Enforceable in court or not, they’re liars. Liars surrounded by a sea of liars, but still liars.
undecisive 4y ago
Yeah. Lots of red flags in that EULA, including bits that don't seem to make any sense: "You agree any legal dispute involving ManyCam services and software must take place in the state or federal courts in Montreal, Quebec." and "You consent to exclusive jurisdiction and venue in Montreal, Quebec and waive the defense of forum non convenience." and yet "If a U.S. court finds any part of this license agreement unenforceable then the remainder of the agreement will continue intact and in full force and effect." Basically, it's your typical "We have rights, you have no rights" kind of contract. If the OP had even briefly scanned that "agreement" (and let's face it, most of us don't) I'm sure they would have realised that their "lifetime" license had no legs.
Pxtl 4y ago
While the contract would mean they have the right to terminate the "lifetime license", it would also mean that the phrasing "lifetime license" is false advertising isn't it?
- emodendroket 4y ago
  I’m not sure, since “lifetime warranties” are never actually perpetual either.
  - jfk13 4y ago
    Well, they're presumably good for the lifetime of the product. Oh, it failed after 6 months? Tough... that was obviously the limit of its lifetime.
jnsie 4y ago
The law deals with what is reasonable and 'reasonable expectations' a whole lot. From my IANAL perspective it is not a reasonable expectation that the average end user is proficient enough in the law to understand the implications of the legalese in the EULA. EULAs are thrust upon us, rarely read, and rarer still read by those with enough legal expertise to fully understand the implications of the text and to 'know what they don't know'
hansvm 4y ago
The EULA may or may not be enforceable, but even if it is they're still liable for the real damages incurred by the false advertising causing people to make that purchase. It's kind of like if you buy a car as-is but the seller goes out of their way to knowingly lie about the condition of the car -- saying it's fit to drive when the brake lines have a leak or something. If there's any evidence then the courts will usually side with the buyer.
- BizarroLand 4y ago
  For real. Contracts are not ironclad unbreakable deals with the devil even in America. The question is, will you step up and fight for your fair portion? If the company has 100 diehard customers affected by this and 99 of them don't fight it, then it's easy to appease the 1 while still coming out ahead.

causi 4y ago

Yep. Happened to me with AVS Video Converter and Cerberus phone security.

no1groyp 4y ago

Vuescan sucks too.

retrobox 4y ago

I had a lifetime license with a forum software company that switched to a subscription model. I questioned the fairness, but they claimed the new product was built on an entirely new foundation different, the forum utilises that foundation, and that's why the lifetime license no longer applies. Since then, I've been skeptical of lifetime licenses. Business model pivots often leave early adopters with a negative impression due to poor handling of the switch

Someone1234 4y ago

I just want to state outright that OP was wronged, and I side with them. That being said; I dislike both full subscription (i.e. breaks on expiration) and lifetime licenses. Subscriptions are too expensive for software that rarely gets major investment and lifetime licenses are dishonest (e.g. company cannot work for free, so their funded is based on unlimited growth, which isn't realistic for most). My current favorite business model is the "You're buying the current version and [years] of updates." Then typically you'll get some discount to renew your "[years] more of updates." This incentivizes them to deliver value, or you'll just stick with whatever version you purchased. Your software keeps working no matter what ("lifetime"). One example of someone who does this well is Jetbrains, but there are several companies. Obviously subscription is the only option if they're delivering most of the value via a web-service of some kind (e.g. ChatGPT Plus).

lkschubert8 4y ago
Isn't pay per usage viable for value via web or does that fall under subscription? I tend to think of subscription as a monthly/annual payment for access.
- Retric 4y ago
  Pay per use has terrible incentives for pure software. It’s more reasonable if there’s an end product at the end. But you don’t want to discourage people using your 3D printing service because your bundling software access that people might not need.
notwhereyouare 4y ago
that's how the audible ripper I use works. I buy 1 version and get updates for a year and then i'm stuck at that specific version
- stronglikedan 4y ago
  And one of my favorite pieces of software, Sublime Text.

lightedman 4y ago

A program called Camfrog did the exact same thing. Lifetime codes got flipped into a new subscription system. Realistically, this is fraud.

Pxtl 4y ago

It's crazy how many people in this thread just accept this as normal and fine. Is the rule of law completely dead?

trevvr 4y ago

I feel complete sympathy. I have a "perpetual" license for Minitab 15. Can I install it in a VM? Yes. Can I activate it? Nope? Can it be used without activation? Nope! So it's useless and has been now for years. Minitab's solution was to offer me a 10% discount on a new pay by month license. No thanks, I'm off to pandas and for quick investigations I'm using Wizard for OSX which is absolutely blow your socks off amazing the first time you slice and dice a record set and do comparative analysis with them looking over your shoulder. https://www.wizardmac.com https://www.wizardmac.com

great_reversal 4y ago

Nearly a decade ago, transitapp.com had a premium app that costed $2.99 to buy. Most users opted for free options, but I saw the value in the app and bought it. The company later switched to a free model, and then more recently a subscription model. I tried getting customer service to honour the lifetime license, but they only offered 1 year of subscription for their Royal plan. I've had other lifetime licenses that have been honoured even after those companies shifted to subscriptions. I always feel bad using the Transit app because of that experience. Wouldn't recommend.

ivanmontillam 4y ago

Slightly related to the topic, but another way to screw up the customer it's when a web hosting company offers "free, unlimited shared hosting." We all know it's technically impossible. Once your typical-day WordPress weighs more than 5 GB, they'll be calling you urgently to split it up or increase the supposedly unlimited plan. Wasn't it unlimited? We all know unlimited server resources don't exist, especially not for $3/month.

emodendroket 4y ago

My general belief is that anyone with a subscription service who offers a “lifetime license” will probably eventually welsh, so I never spend my money on them. Doesn’t excuse it but this is an example.

bookofjoe 4y ago
Concur. Same thing as cable/phone companies saying "Your rate will never go up if you subscribe now." That ALWAYS proves false.

rarkins 4y ago

Visicom really pumped the ManyCam lifetime upsells. I found 15 emails over an 18 month period in 2020-2021 with them pitching lifetime (which I eventually bought). An example email text they used is: > Upgrade now to ManyCam Studio Lifetime for only $39 and get access to all the future versions and updates, forever! What they presented to the user was unequivocal. In a just world, the company who sold ManyCam (Visicom Media) should not be able to get away with this.

rarkins 4y ago
This seems relevant: https://contracts.justia.com/companies/peerstream-inc-2967/contract/275473/ https://contracts.justia.com/companies/peerstream-inc-2967/c...
rarkins 4y ago
From https://www.marketscreener.com/quote/stock/PALTALK-INC-111314206/news/PALTALK-INC-MANAGEMENT-S-DISCUSSION-AND-ANALYSIS-OF-FINANCIAL-CONDITION-AND-RESULTS-OF-OPERATIONS-43324956/ https://www.marketscreener.com/quote/stock/PALTALK-INC-11131... > On June 30, 2022, we entered into a License Agreement with Visicom (the "License Agreement"), pursuant to which we agreed to distribute, at the discretion and direction of Visicom, a specified number of ManyCam software updates to certain license holders to whom Visicom has previously granted a "lifetime" license to ManyCam software. As consideration for distributing the software updates, Visicom paid us an initial upfront nonrefundable payment of $65,000. The License Agreement provides that Visicom may purchase additional licenses at prices specified therein. Other than providing a one-time, limited license to Visicom for the distribution of ManyCam software updates pursuant to the terms of the License Agreement, we do not have any obligation to provide support or service to the licensee end users.
emodendroket 4y ago
The fact they were pumping these for only $39 kind of suggests the reason they never should have made such a commitment in the first place.
- mh- 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

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uni_baconcat 4y ago

There's an app I bought on my phone a few years ago. Someday, they moved to a subscription model, and the app became free to download. But I like their method because I'm still able to use the app and get updates. All the features they launched before are available to me, and only new features added after the switch are locked and require an active subscription. With the trend of new business models, my best expectation is that I could 'own' everything up to the time I made the purchase. I am not expecting more, but please don't take away what I have paid for.

josephcsible 4y ago

This is now the third high-profile occurrence of this exact thing in just a few months. The last two were Filmora <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34199153 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34199153> <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34177057 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34177057> and mIRC <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33864660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33864660>.

harrisonjackson 4y ago

Companies that acquire lifetime users should have a budget set aside for refunding these users.

dangerboysteve 4y ago

The OP writes, "ManyCam is a software that does several things, I needed it to be able to use a webcam in two applications at the same time.". I believe the free and open source OBS studio does this. I understand this is not the main point of the article.

i-use-nixos-btw 4y ago
Yeah, this is where I’m completely lost. You don’t need to do much use a webcam in two applications at the same time. If you want some additional features VLC can handle it easily. If you want the bells and whistles then OBS. All FOSS. So I don’t understand the value add - is it used for more than is being described, or if there’s legitimately a piece of software that does something so trivial yet people are actually paying for it.

sowbug 4y ago

A "lifetime" purchase is really the lifetime of the product or its manufacturer, whichever dies first. I've never heard of this company, but it died when it got bought. I'm not saying this as a lawyer or having scrutinized the license terms. It's more of a life lesson. Before you fork over your one-time fee, ask yourself: are they offering a great deal because they're a great company with a great product and a great business model? Or are they trying to hoover up money because they're on life support and the bills are coming due? Side note: one company seems to have gotten this balance right. There's a music product called FL Studio that sells lifetime licenses. I've had mine for over 20 years, and it's still updated. The license was expensive (good to keep the company going), they sell DLC (good incentive to keep the product fresh), and the product itself is inherently a platform around which a strong community has formed (good because the company knows their product effort translates directly into word-of-mouth advertising).

jollyllama 4y ago

So there was a change in ownership that precipitated this. I can understand the author was wronged. But what if things were done slightly differently, i.e. the owner of ManyCam EOL'd the product, sold his business, and a "new" equivalent product were released? Technically, the agreement wouldn't be violated in the same way, but the effect would be the same. Would the author be just as upset, or would this be more understandable?

OkayPhysicist 4y ago
I think it would still be irritating, but significantly less so. When a company buys another out and continues using a piece of software's name, they're doing so because that brand has built up some level of awareness and goodwill with the market. That awareness and goodwill is directly the result of its existing, satisfied customers. Alienating those satisfied customers while still cashing in on the reputation they built for you violates not only a basic sense of fairness, but probably in this case contractual obligations. On the other hand, if you strip the existing software for parts, and put out something substantially different under new branding, at least you're giving something up.
- jollyllama 4y ago
  Yes, the branding was the thing I was not accounting for.

AlwaysRock 4y ago

I get very wary of lifetime licenses because when companies start offering them it often means they are scrambling for cash. The lifetime of the product might be six months or less from when you purchase.

nolan879 4y ago

in 2015 I bought a lifetime license for SpeedDial2 Pro, but in 2021 they switched to a yearly subscription model to sustain upkeep and development. I am thankful that their team has grandfathered in lifetime licenses for use of the core feature set. I believe the new features that came after the subscription model are only for the new subscribers.

henriquez 4y ago

Remember Google gave early adopters free "lifetime" subscriptions to their Google Workspaces for Business (aka gmail for domain names) and then pulled the rug out a year ago? If Google can get away with this shit then it's normalized in our culture that nothing corporations promise is true, pray they don't alter the terms further.

danpalmer 4y ago
The important bit here is "free". While it wasn't a great move, nothing was paid for so there's no contract. Also I'm not sure it was ever called "lifetime" (I can't find that), it looks like it was just "grandfathering" old users in to a free plan. I think that's a materially different situation to selling lifetime licences and then reneging on that.

cjbgkagh 4y ago

Edit: reading some of the comments it seems that the license was offered with perpetual free future update, so backports would not be needed. In that case the author does have a legitimate grievance. Though these rug pulls are so common they should be expected. Lifetime of bug fixes and back ports, that is ridiculous. He is still free to use his software in a VM. Maintaining old versions like this is super expensive and is generally only done for customers that are paying a lot of money for that service. You basically need a whole second dev team for back-ports. Usually this is only done for government or industrial type stuff where the software is certified for a particular version. They pay a lot of money for that service, people who don’t need pinned versions are far better off with a subscription. As far as I can tell no licenses were revoked, the author is still able to use his old versions and thus this is a total non issue. I’ve personally been through the process of shifting customers from a perpetual license to a subscription model. Some did ask us to maintain old versions indefinitely for them but to explained to them that wouldn’t be viable without charging for that and since so few people wanted old versions maintained that cost would be amortized over fewer customers and would be much more expensive that simply updating. It’s not just one old version that needs updating it’s N, and if the fix depends on a new feature, well that would have to back-ported as well, it’s a total insane mess. I would ask the customer what their reasons for pinning to a version and make sure we didn’t break those reasons in new versions. I have some customers still using V1 from 14 years ago and they’re still happy with it.

freedude 4y ago

"Coming back to customers. Do you invest in extracting short term money from customers? Or do you invest in long term relations. In the case of ManyCam they could have sold me add-ons that feel like they are worth it. By honoring the lifetime license the likelihood of me buying from them increases. It is the same as from the detour. In the beginning it’s about getting traction, then about getting money. And then the key to growth is retention. If you want to grow your customer base, the first thing is to prevent customers leaving. If you fill water in a bucket with a hole - something I’ve seen in to many startups on how they use marketing without product market fit - then after some time the bucket is empty when you stop pouring. So don’t make your customers run away." When I was in high school I had an opportunity to learn customer service from one of the greatest businessmen that lived. My grandpa, the produce farmer and peach orchardist. He owned and operated the largest peach orchard in Oregon at the time and had customers that had been returning to his orchard for a lifetime. Why, would they keep coming back? Because he made a produced a final product that was so sweet and juicy the flavors would explode in your mouth and the juice would run down you arm and drip off your elbow. Because they wanted to support a family man that was dedicated to providing a good living for his family, who also worked for him. Because they wanted to get out of the city and see, for the briefest of moments, what is was like in the fresh air and sunshine of the Oregon countryside. Because they wanted the opportunity to harvest the food they were going to eat and choose what they wanted for themselves. and many other reasons... He would talk with customers he would see only once or twice a year and discuss the topics of the day in a down to earth way that only a farmer can express. And they would keep coming back... Don't run off your customers. They are a business' most valuable asset. If you want to know more about customer service and how it used to be, read Les Schwab's book, "Pride in Performance: Keep It Going".

Jiro 4y ago
>Because they wanted to support a family man that was dedicated to providing a good living for his family, who also worked for him. If you want to give someone money based on whether they deserve it, rather than in a market transaction based on the value of the goods they are selling, I'm pretty sure there are better charities around than "pick the nearest produce farmer".

mthoms 4y ago

Advanced Custom Fields is one of the must-have WordPress plugins for anyone who works with WP professionally. They handled this like champs; Upon moving to a subscription model, all existing lifetime license holders continued to have their license honored. 100%. It was quite refreshing, actually.

sgtnoodle 4y ago

Sort of reminds me of IAR's compilers for embedded systems. Their pricing models only seem to hurt their business by irritating their customers. As our company grew, it became more cost effective, less stressful, and less risky to port our code base over to GCC than to keep dealing with increasingly more contrived licenses.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

JoeAltmaier 4y ago

I want to say "I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'm selling, why not buy that too!" But in software, so often there's no significant cost to lifetime subscriptions. Then it's just bastardy to revoke them.

effingwewt 4y ago

I've had apps/games I paid for suddenly change to IAP/subscription and completely screw everyone who purchased the original. Square Enix screwed over android users who'd paid 20/game for the Final Fantasy series (I had purchased them all at one point), and for no reason deprecated the 'old versions' and released new ones (with zero updates/changes to the apps) and charged the full price again. They never updated the original apps, the same bugs persisted for years, they finally update just to charge again. I forget the publisher but Titan Quest on Android did the same thing. Shifted to a 'legendary edition' and screwed all original purchasers. Enough people complained that they released the add-ons for the old version at a higher price. Now I just buy games on Switch or steam. Can't even re-buy the games on switch as after the SE screwing FF7 remake and then android apps I'm done giving them money. So back to emulators to play the classics before IAPs. Feel like everything just gets worse instead of the better I'd always imagined =(

dblohm7 4y ago