4 ms·

With this and what happened with Bob Lee, what is going on with San Francisco? Cops not doing their jobs? DA's not prosecuting criminals? Couldn't Whole Foods h

With this and what happened with Bob Lee, what is going on with San Francisco? Cops not doing their jobs? DA's not prosecuting criminals? Couldn't Whole Foods hire armed security to dissuade theft?

prottog 4y ago
> Couldn't Whole Foods hire armed security to dissuade theft? This would likely result in a social media fallout that they don't want to deal with, considering that the core customer base of Whole Foods overlaps largely with those that at least publicly claim that law enforcement over private property rights is tantamount to oppression.
- stuff4ben 4y ago
  I mean yeah I can see that, but geez, clubs have bouncers and banks have guards. This isn't too far away from that.
  - BuyMyBitcoins 4y ago
    From a PR perspective having armed security at a grocery store would invite a whirlwind of bad press and unfair comparisons. Most people would agree that stealing food for sustenance can sometimes be justified. I can already imagine social media backlash over someone being apprehended at gunpoint after trying to steal a small amount of food. Contrast that with how it would look for someone apprehended at gunpoint at a bank. Almost no one thinks it’s okay to steal just a little bit of money from a bank.
- icedistilled 4y ago
  No. Other whole foods in SF have a guard at the door. Are they armed? I don't know but they have a guard. No one is bothered. Most big stores in SF seem to have security. Target has multiple that stand by the doors.
  - prottog 4y ago
    I was specifically referring to the "armed guard" aspect. You bet the public response will be different to a Walmart LP person using physical force to detain a shoplifter vs. Whole Foods.
- analog31 4y ago
  I suspect a more important issue is that attending an "upscale" store is at least partly an aesthetic experience. A heavy security presence spoils that aesthetic. If you want to shop under a 10 x 10 foot grid of security cameras, there's always Wal-Mart. To be fair, the security presence in Wal-Mart, or in a bank, may also be an aesthetic.
ergonaught 4y ago
> Couldn't Whole Foods hire armed security to dissuade theft? That seems rather “off brand”, and in any event while we could begin outsourcing public safety to corporations, and we probably will, I don’t think that story ends well for anyone.
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  It’s true. Neal Stephenson does often struggle with the follow through. But in the meantime we do get fast pizza delivery!
gweinberg 4y ago
I think Whole Foods already has private security, for all the good it does them. At least one bay are store did: https://abc7news.com/whole-foods-security-guard-beats-customer-oakland-replacing-the-firm/977998/ https://abc7news.com/whole-foods-security-guard-beats-custom...
das-hinterland 4y ago
[flagged]
google234123 4y ago
Why can't everyone living in SF just hire armed security to dissuade crime?
- kelp 4y ago
  I know you're kind of joking. But ever been to Rio de Janeiro? Every restaurant and store in the nice neighborhoods, like Ipanema and Leblon has a least one guard. Sit down at outdoor seating at any restaurant in those areas and there is a guard standing there right by the tables while you eat. San Francisco is about at that point. Years ago I was sitting at some outdoor seating on a first date and a guy walked up, grabbed my dates glass of wine, pounded it, and said "I'm an alcoholic" making eye contact with both of us, as he set my dates glass back down on the table.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  People don’t need security all the time. What we need is like an Uber for armed security. Although to generally protect the community, maybe there’s a way we could do like an Uberpool for the whole town? If only there were a way to get everyone to chip in.
threeseed 4y ago
What happened to Bob Lee is tragic and unacceptable. But violent crime is not unique to San Francisco and if you look at the data the city is far safer than many others. When it comes to issues like this you really need to look at the data as it is too easy to let passions and bias drive decision making. If you could solve crime by hiring more police and locking more people up every city would do that. But the data shows that it doesn't work like that.
- rossdavidh 4y ago
  I don't know the truth of it and there are varying levels of reporting in different cities, but: https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/san-francisco/crime https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/san-francisco/crime "Safer than 2% of U.S. Cities..."
  - threeseed 4y ago
    I was referring to violent crime as outlined in the article. A lot of petty crime stems from inequality and drug use not from career criminals. And those issues can't be solved by more policing.
    - 0zemp1c 4y ago
      [flagged]
- vxNsr 4y ago
  Per sq ft, per capita, per any stat you care to look at this isn’t really true if you use the actual numbers and not whatever doctored nonsense people are blowing around to pretend their form of politics/propaganda is better.
kelp 4y ago
The Bob Lee thing was incredibly unfortunate (I used to work with Bob) but violent crime is actually fairly low in SF compared to similar sized cities in the US. However property crime is not low. And downtown, TL, SOMA etc are full of tents and open air drug use. Shoplifting has been bad in SF since I first moved there in 2009 from Seattle. I was surprised to see Walgreens had nearly everything locked up, and you had to get staff to unlock it to buy just about anything. But it feels like it's gotten worse. And while I believe the violent crime statistics are likely correct. I suspect property crime goes hugely underreported because people don't think it's worth reporting to a police department that won't do anything. SF police are severely under-staffed, down about 500 officers since their peak several years ago. The previous DA wasn't prosecuting a lot of these kinds of crimes. The police might have been on a quiet strike, not really doing their jobs because of understaffing and defund the police politics. This last point is mostly speculation and anecdote. But lots of stories of the police seeing a robbery go down, doing nothing. And then the rampant poverty you see all over downtown has just gotten worse.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- vxNsr 4y ago
  If I were a cop I wouldn’t expend any effort to chase down a criminal if I know the DA is gonna shirk their responsibility. What’s the point? Law enforcement doesn’t work if the law isn’t enforced. Same way I’m not gonna do any extra work in the office if I know my manager doesn’t care.
  - renewiltord 4y ago
    What getting the new DA has shown is that if many people are cops, they won't expend any effort to chase down a criminal whether or not the DA is going to shirk their responsibility. Every quarter since we recalled the old DA we've had higher homicides than the year preceding (the old DA had no increase over the one before).
    - vxNsr 3y ago
blululu 4y ago
This is going to elude a quick explanation. The problems are very specific to San Francisco, so trying to fit this into a national narrative or attribute it to a single factor is not going to work. * The voters sacked the old DA. He wasn't doing a great job but more importantly he had picked a fight with the police chief. The police have a tough job in the city and also they have been slacking off for the past 50 years. A security guard can't really intervene in a fight without 1.) risking their physical safety for $18 an hour, and 2.) risking a lawsuit since they don't really have any legal grounds to detain someone. The store was on 8th and Market. I generally try to avoid that part of town for physical safety reasons based on a number of personal incidents involving some of the the more unpredictable characters in that part of town. I'm not sure what Whole Foods corporate HQ was thinking on that one. The location is just not a good place for a high end grocery store. HQ messed up. I would also point out that Rainbow foods is maybe 0.5 miles over on Folsom and Division. While Rainbow is near a lot of homeless encampments (maybe more than 8th and Market) the people are more steady and I never get the unsafe vibes in that part of town.
- ncr100 4y ago
  The location, in my mind, makes sense. It is near upcoming new-housing, and also notorious 6th, so it's likely to be cheap and popular. And it's more central than their South-of-Market store on ... 4th & Harrison. The Twitter building's nearby "The Market" grocery might benefit from this closure - it's suffered greatly from the Pandemic, Twitter itself shrinking, and the great Fentanyl-flooding.
- singleshot_ 4y ago
  > risking a lawsuit since they don't really have any legal grounds to detain someone. No. Shopkeeper’s privilege allows detention for a reasonable time solely for the purpose of investigation of 490.5 shoplifting in the presence of probable cause. (Dead right on the eighteen dollar bit, though).
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > security guard... risking their physical safety for $18 an hour I never understood what's the point of hiring security at a miniscule wage. Noone sane will risk any physical confrontation for that money. If they get stabbed, need 6 months to recover and get a $100K surgery, is employer paying all the bills? I see this in many places - like a few badly behaved teenagers will jump over the barriers at the tube and the employees are not willing to challange them. Like do I only pay because I am well-mannered?
kelp 4y ago
> Couldn't Whole Foods hire armed security to dissuade theft? I don't know. But I have directly seen security from the Target on 4th tackle someone in the middle of the crosswalk, and hit them repeatedly as they took back whatever that person had stolen. Random people on the street then started yelling at security to stop hitting the person who was caught shoplifting.

With this and what happened with Bob Lee, what is going on with San Francisco? Cops not doing their jobs? DA's not prosecuting criminals? Couldn't Whole Foods hire armed security to dissuade theft?

prottog 4y ago

> Couldn't Whole Foods hire armed security to dissuade theft? This would likely result in a social media fallout that they don't want to deal with, considering that the core customer base of Whole Foods overlaps largely with those that at least publicly claim that law enforcement over private property rights is tantamount to oppression.

stuff4ben 4y ago
I mean yeah I can see that, but geez, clubs have bouncers and banks have guards. This isn't too far away from that.
- BuyMyBitcoins 4y ago
  From a PR perspective having armed security at a grocery store would invite a whirlwind of bad press and unfair comparisons. Most people would agree that stealing food for sustenance can sometimes be justified. I can already imagine social media backlash over someone being apprehended at gunpoint after trying to steal a small amount of food. Contrast that with how it would look for someone apprehended at gunpoint at a bank. Almost no one thinks it’s okay to steal just a little bit of money from a bank.
icedistilled 4y ago
No. Other whole foods in SF have a guard at the door. Are they armed? I don't know but they have a guard. No one is bothered. Most big stores in SF seem to have security. Target has multiple that stand by the doors.
- prottog 4y ago
  I was specifically referring to the "armed guard" aspect. You bet the public response will be different to a Walmart LP person using physical force to detain a shoplifter vs. Whole Foods.
analog31 4y ago
I suspect a more important issue is that attending an "upscale" store is at least partly an aesthetic experience. A heavy security presence spoils that aesthetic. If you want to shop under a 10 x 10 foot grid of security cameras, there's always Wal-Mart. To be fair, the security presence in Wal-Mart, or in a bank, may also be an aesthetic.

ergonaught 4y ago

> Couldn't Whole Foods hire armed security to dissuade theft? That seems rather “off brand”, and in any event while we could begin outsourcing public safety to corporations, and we probably will, I don’t think that story ends well for anyone.

Robotbeat 4y ago
It’s true. Neal Stephenson does often struggle with the follow through. But in the meantime we do get fast pizza delivery!

gweinberg 4y ago

I think Whole Foods already has private security, for all the good it does them. At least one bay are store did: https://abc7news.com/whole-foods-security-guard-beats-customer-oakland-replacing-the-firm/977998/ https://abc7news.com/whole-foods-security-guard-beats-custom...

das-hinterland 4y ago

[flagged]

google234123 4y ago

Why can't everyone living in SF just hire armed security to dissuade crime?

kelp 4y ago
I know you're kind of joking. But ever been to Rio de Janeiro? Every restaurant and store in the nice neighborhoods, like Ipanema and Leblon has a least one guard. Sit down at outdoor seating at any restaurant in those areas and there is a guard standing there right by the tables while you eat. San Francisco is about at that point. Years ago I was sitting at some outdoor seating on a first date and a guy walked up, grabbed my dates glass of wine, pounded it, and said "I'm an alcoholic" making eye contact with both of us, as he set my dates glass back down on the table.
bee_rider 4y ago
People don’t need security all the time. What we need is like an Uber for armed security. Although to generally protect the community, maybe there’s a way we could do like an Uberpool for the whole town? If only there were a way to get everyone to chip in.

threeseed 4y ago

What happened to Bob Lee is tragic and unacceptable. But violent crime is not unique to San Francisco and if you look at the data the city is far safer than many others. When it comes to issues like this you really need to look at the data as it is too easy to let passions and bias drive decision making. If you could solve crime by hiring more police and locking more people up every city would do that. But the data shows that it doesn't work like that.

rossdavidh 4y ago
I don't know the truth of it and there are varying levels of reporting in different cities, but: https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/san-francisco/crime https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/san-francisco/crime "Safer than 2% of U.S. Cities..."
- threeseed 4y ago
  I was referring to violent crime as outlined in the article. A lot of petty crime stems from inequality and drug use not from career criminals. And those issues can't be solved by more policing.
  - 0zemp1c 4y ago
    [flagged]
vxNsr 4y ago
Per sq ft, per capita, per any stat you care to look at this isn’t really true if you use the actual numbers and not whatever doctored nonsense people are blowing around to pretend their form of politics/propaganda is better.

kelp 4y ago

The Bob Lee thing was incredibly unfortunate (I used to work with Bob) but violent crime is actually fairly low in SF compared to similar sized cities in the US. However property crime is not low. And downtown, TL, SOMA etc are full of tents and open air drug use. Shoplifting has been bad in SF since I first moved there in 2009 from Seattle. I was surprised to see Walgreens had nearly everything locked up, and you had to get staff to unlock it to buy just about anything. But it feels like it's gotten worse. And while I believe the violent crime statistics are likely correct. I suspect property crime goes hugely underreported because people don't think it's worth reporting to a police department that won't do anything. SF police are severely under-staffed, down about 500 officers since their peak several years ago. The previous DA wasn't prosecuting a lot of these kinds of crimes. The police might have been on a quiet strike, not really doing their jobs because of understaffing and defund the police politics. This last point is mostly speculation and anecdote. But lots of stories of the police seeing a robbery go down, doing nothing. And then the rampant poverty you see all over downtown has just gotten worse.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
vxNsr 4y ago
If I were a cop I wouldn’t expend any effort to chase down a criminal if I know the DA is gonna shirk their responsibility. What’s the point? Law enforcement doesn’t work if the law isn’t enforced. Same way I’m not gonna do any extra work in the office if I know my manager doesn’t care.
- renewiltord 4y ago
  What getting the new DA has shown is that if many people are cops, they won't expend any effort to chase down a criminal whether or not the DA is going to shirk their responsibility. Every quarter since we recalled the old DA we've had higher homicides than the year preceding (the old DA had no increase over the one before).
  - vxNsr 3y ago

blululu 4y ago

This is going to elude a quick explanation. The problems are very specific to San Francisco, so trying to fit this into a national narrative or attribute it to a single factor is not going to work. * The voters sacked the old DA. He wasn't doing a great job but more importantly he had picked a fight with the police chief. The police have a tough job in the city and also they have been slacking off for the past 50 years. A security guard can't really intervene in a fight without 1.) risking their physical safety for $18 an hour, and 2.) risking a lawsuit since they don't really have any legal grounds to detain someone. The store was on 8th and Market. I generally try to avoid that part of town for physical safety reasons based on a number of personal incidents involving some of the the more unpredictable characters in that part of town. I'm not sure what Whole Foods corporate HQ was thinking on that one. The location is just not a good place for a high end grocery store. HQ messed up. I would also point out that Rainbow foods is maybe 0.5 miles over on Folsom and Division. While Rainbow is near a lot of homeless encampments (maybe more than 8th and Market) the people are more steady and I never get the unsafe vibes in that part of town.

ncr100 4y ago
The location, in my mind, makes sense. It is near upcoming new-housing, and also notorious 6th, so it's likely to be cheap and popular. And it's more central than their South-of-Market store on ... 4th & Harrison. The Twitter building's nearby "The Market" grocery might benefit from this closure - it's suffered greatly from the Pandemic, Twitter itself shrinking, and the great Fentanyl-flooding.
singleshot_ 4y ago
> risking a lawsuit since they don't really have any legal grounds to detain someone. No. Shopkeeper’s privilege allows detention for a reasonable time solely for the purpose of investigation of 490.5 shoplifting in the presence of probable cause. (Dead right on the eighteen dollar bit, though).
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> security guard... risking their physical safety for $18 an hour I never understood what's the point of hiring security at a miniscule wage. Noone sane will risk any physical confrontation for that money. If they get stabbed, need 6 months to recover and get a $100K surgery, is employer paying all the bills? I see this in many places - like a few badly behaved teenagers will jump over the barriers at the tube and the employees are not willing to challange them. Like do I only pay because I am well-mannered?

kelp 4y ago

> Couldn't Whole Foods hire armed security to dissuade theft? I don't know. But I have directly seen security from the Target on 4th tackle someone in the middle of the crosswalk, and hit them repeatedly as they took back whatever that person had stolen. Random people on the street then started yelling at security to stop hitting the person who was caught shoplifting.