20 ms·

Ford to spend $1.3B to transform Canada factory into EV manufacturing hub

76 points by zvonimirs 3y ago

1970-01-01 3y ago
>Ford, along with its rivals, are scrambling to upgrade existing facilities and build new ones as they shift from internal combustion engine vehicles to EVs. Ford has said it wants the production capacity to sell 2 million EVs a year globally by the end of 2026. Tesla is expected to exceed Ford's 2026 milestone this year. It's safe to assume Ford is 3 years behind Tesla, and won't be able to catch them before the 2035 EV mandates.
- josefresco 3y ago
  > It's safe to assume Ford is 3 years behind Tesla How is this safe to assume?
  - 1970-01-01 3y ago
    Ford has the numbers Tesla did in 2020.
    - josefresco 3y ago
      Pace of growth is what's important now. I'll look for the numbers but I would guess that Ford is reaching early milestones quicker than Tesla. Not a knock on Tesla, just that it's a different market now.
      - supergeek 3y ago
        Their own target for 2026 production capacity is 2 million EVs, actual production at that capacity will then be 2027. Tesla's current 2023 capacity is about 2 million EVs per year.
        josefresco 3y ago
        Tesla shipped 161,630 first quarter 2K3 so is the capacity there but not the sales?
- laweijfmvo 3y ago
  > According to Ford’s press release, the American automaker sold a total of 10,866 electric vehicles in the first quarter of 2023, up 41% year over year (YOY). https://electrek.co/2023/04/04/ford-slips-below-gm-for-2-in-us-ev-sales-for-the-first-quarter/ https://electrek.co/2023/04/04/ford-slips-below-gm-for-2-in-... > Previously, Tesla said that it had delivered around 88,400 vehicles in the first quarter of 2020 https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/29/tesla-tsla-earnings-q1-2020.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/29/tesla-tsla-earnings-q1-2020.... and just for reference, this year: > Sales of new Tesla electric vehicles rose for the first quarter of 2023, according to sales and production figures released by the EV maker on Sunday. For the three months between the start of the year and the end of March, Tesla delivered 422,875 EVs https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/04/tesla-built-more-cars-than-it-could-sell-in-q1-2023/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/04/tesla-built-more-cars-t...
hcurtiss 3y ago
Combined with the investments in Tennessee, Kentucky, and Michigan, this is "bet the company" levels of investment. I pray for Ford's sake they picked the right horse (vis-à-vis, e.g., hydrogen or ammonia).
- Yoofie 3y ago
  Doesn't matter, they are too big to fail™.
  - justrealist 3y ago
    Ford is the only major automaker that didn't need (or get) a bailout.
    - ch4s3 3y ago
      This is technically true but they sort won in a prisoners dilemma type situation. Had no auto makers been bailed out, the shared suppliers may have all folded causing Ford to go under. So while they didn't take any direct money, the bailouts kept their upstream suppliers afloat. Ford also benefits from high import tariffs on foreign built trucks, a tariff basically designed to protect the F-150. If you check subsidy tracker[1], you're see that Ford is an enormous recipient of corporate welfare. They've received $5 billion from Michigan alone since just 2010. [1] https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/ford-motor https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/ford-motor
      - vuln 3y ago
        > Ford also benefits from high import tariffs on foreign built trucks, a tariff basically designed to protect the F-150. Protect it from GM, Toyota, Rivian whom builds their Trucks in America? No American truck buyer wants a Mitsubishi or Hyundai truck. Full stop.
        ch4s3 3y ago
        Rivian didn't exist, and Toyota didn't enter the US market until a year after the tariff and didn't build trucks for the US market then. Sure GM builds trucks too and benefits, but it was basically designed as a giveaway to Ford while keeping VW light trucks out of the US market in retaliation for Germany tariffs on chicken. > No American truck buyer wants a Mitsubishi or Hyundai truck. Full stop. Then why maintain a tariff from 1964 designed by the Johnson administration?
DrThunder 3y ago
Dumb. Ford's sales are mostly their F-150. Very few people want a lightning and very few can afford them. Imagine dumping $60-$100k+ on something that's worse than it's cheaper ICE version in every way. Also, the used EV market is going to be trash. These are throw away vehicles. The only way they keep selling is government force mandates and rebates.
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  There are lot of F-150 buyers that want a good Electric Truck... The F-150 Lightening has a strong launch, and reservation order book... then the actual truck came out and they burned alot of good will with the Community by rushing it to market with poor performance, poor battery tech, etc. The F-150 Lightening was a BAD first showing for Ford, and it will be hard for them to recover from it with F150 owners.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    There are two types of F-150 buyers - those who enjoy the idea of having a truck and those who use a truck. F-150 Lightning seems to fulfill nearly ever checkbox wishlist item for the first group... but not much for the second group. I wager we'll see a lot more Lightnings driving around urban/suburban areas than rural or jobsites.
    - rootusrootus 3y ago
      > There are two types of F-150 buyers The F-series isn't the most popular vehicle in America because there are only two types of buyers. Roughly, the answer to "who is a truck person?" is "everyone."
      - Alupis 3y ago
        You unintentionally make my point. If "everyone" is a truck person then no one is a truck person. Majority of people who own trucks do not use it as a truck... rather it's used like a glorified car or SUV. That clearly makes for two types of truck buyers, with two types of needs and wants. An electric truck is not for professionals - it's for your office commuter who likes the idea of a truck. The Lightning fits that person perfectly, even if it's not a "good truck" by truck standards. The problem was Ford billed it as a worksite truck for professionals.
grecy 3y ago
it will begin modernizing the site in the second quarter of 2024 Ford has said it wants the production capacity to sell 2 million EVs a year globally by the end of 2026 So Ford's stated goal is to produce the same number of EVs in 2027 that Tesla will produce in 2023.
- itsoktocry 3y ago
  >So Ford's stated goal is to produce the same number of EVs in 2027 that Tesla will produce in 2023. And infinity more ICE vehicles than Tesla will build in 2023. What is your point? It doesn't matter what any non-Tesla company says, the Tesla fans will say it's not enough or unattainable.
  - grecy 3y ago
    > What is your point? My point was to show the reality of the situation. Not to say Tesla are the best (I've never even had one), but just show the state of play.
- r00fus 3y ago
  All the better for consumers who want EVs.
midnightdiesel 3y ago
They still need to spend at least as much on fixing their continual quality and software problems.
joewadcan 3y ago
I'd bet that Ford is the only legacy American brand that will make it to 2033. And it's because of their heavy investment to manufacture more and not just assemble - great to see it happen
yegle 3y ago
Oakville employs 3,000 people, and though salaried, skilled-trade and "some" production workers will continue work through the six-month transformation that begins in the second quarter of 2024, temporarily laid-off employees will be back before the end of next year, said Tony Savoni, plant manager. So 6 months of unemployment for presumably most of the 3000 employees.
outside1234 3y ago
I'm super excited about our EV future. All we need is for V2G (Vehicle to Grid) and V2H (Vehicle to Home) technologies to land.
- r00fus 3y ago
  Lots of EVs can support V2H/V2G already - VW ID4, Ford F150 Lightning, Nissan Leaf, etc. 2023 is a big year as companies like Enphase will roll out bidirectional charging support for solar installations [1]. Got a powerwall? How about an additional 5 from your Leaf (or 10 from your Lighting)? Pretty exciting. [1] https://enphase.com/ev-chargers/bidirectional https://enphase.com/ev-chargers/bidirectional

76 points by zvonimirs 3y ago

1970-01-01 3y ago

>Ford, along with its rivals, are scrambling to upgrade existing facilities and build new ones as they shift from internal combustion engine vehicles to EVs. Ford has said it wants the production capacity to sell 2 million EVs a year globally by the end of 2026. Tesla is expected to exceed Ford's 2026 milestone this year. It's safe to assume Ford is 3 years behind Tesla, and won't be able to catch them before the 2035 EV mandates.

josefresco 3y ago
> It's safe to assume Ford is 3 years behind Tesla How is this safe to assume?
- 1970-01-01 3y ago
  Ford has the numbers Tesla did in 2020.
  - josefresco 3y ago
    Pace of growth is what's important now. I'll look for the numbers but I would guess that Ford is reaching early milestones quicker than Tesla. Not a knock on Tesla, just that it's a different market now.
    - supergeek 3y ago
      Their own target for 2026 production capacity is 2 million EVs, actual production at that capacity will then be 2027. Tesla's current 2023 capacity is about 2 million EVs per year.
      - josefresco 3y ago
        Tesla shipped 161,630 first quarter 2K3 so is the capacity there but not the sales?
laweijfmvo 3y ago
> According to Ford’s press release, the American automaker sold a total of 10,866 electric vehicles in the first quarter of 2023, up 41% year over year (YOY). https://electrek.co/2023/04/04/ford-slips-below-gm-for-2-in-us-ev-sales-for-the-first-quarter/ https://electrek.co/2023/04/04/ford-slips-below-gm-for-2-in-... > Previously, Tesla said that it had delivered around 88,400 vehicles in the first quarter of 2020 https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/29/tesla-tsla-earnings-q1-2020.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/29/tesla-tsla-earnings-q1-2020.... and just for reference, this year: > Sales of new Tesla electric vehicles rose for the first quarter of 2023, according to sales and production figures released by the EV maker on Sunday. For the three months between the start of the year and the end of March, Tesla delivered 422,875 EVs https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/04/tesla-built-more-cars-than-it-could-sell-in-q1-2023/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/04/tesla-built-more-cars-t...

hcurtiss 3y ago

Combined with the investments in Tennessee, Kentucky, and Michigan, this is "bet the company" levels of investment. I pray for Ford's sake they picked the right horse (vis-à-vis, e.g., hydrogen or ammonia).

Yoofie 3y ago
Doesn't matter, they are too big to fail™.
- justrealist 3y ago
  Ford is the only major automaker that didn't need (or get) a bailout.
  - ch4s3 3y ago
    This is technically true but they sort won in a prisoners dilemma type situation. Had no auto makers been bailed out, the shared suppliers may have all folded causing Ford to go under. So while they didn't take any direct money, the bailouts kept their upstream suppliers afloat. Ford also benefits from high import tariffs on foreign built trucks, a tariff basically designed to protect the F-150. If you check subsidy tracker[1], you're see that Ford is an enormous recipient of corporate welfare. They've received $5 billion from Michigan alone since just 2010. [1] https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/ford-motor https://subsidytracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/ford-motor
    - vuln 3y ago
      > Ford also benefits from high import tariffs on foreign built trucks, a tariff basically designed to protect the F-150. Protect it from GM, Toyota, Rivian whom builds their Trucks in America? No American truck buyer wants a Mitsubishi or Hyundai truck. Full stop.
      - ch4s3 3y ago
        Rivian didn't exist, and Toyota didn't enter the US market until a year after the tariff and didn't build trucks for the US market then. Sure GM builds trucks too and benefits, but it was basically designed as a giveaway to Ford while keeping VW light trucks out of the US market in retaliation for Germany tariffs on chicken. > No American truck buyer wants a Mitsubishi or Hyundai truck. Full stop. Then why maintain a tariff from 1964 designed by the Johnson administration?

DrThunder 3y ago

Dumb. Ford's sales are mostly their F-150. Very few people want a lightning and very few can afford them. Imagine dumping $60-$100k+ on something that's worse than it's cheaper ICE version in every way. Also, the used EV market is going to be trash. These are throw away vehicles. The only way they keep selling is government force mandates and rebates.

phpisthebest 3y ago
There are lot of F-150 buyers that want a good Electric Truck... The F-150 Lightening has a strong launch, and reservation order book... then the actual truck came out and they burned alot of good will with the Community by rushing it to market with poor performance, poor battery tech, etc. The F-150 Lightening was a BAD first showing for Ford, and it will be hard for them to recover from it with F150 owners.
- Alupis 3y ago
  There are two types of F-150 buyers - those who enjoy the idea of having a truck and those who use a truck. F-150 Lightning seems to fulfill nearly ever checkbox wishlist item for the first group... but not much for the second group. I wager we'll see a lot more Lightnings driving around urban/suburban areas than rural or jobsites.
  - rootusrootus 3y ago
    > There are two types of F-150 buyers The F-series isn't the most popular vehicle in America because there are only two types of buyers. Roughly, the answer to "who is a truck person?" is "everyone."
    - Alupis 3y ago
      You unintentionally make my point. If "everyone" is a truck person then no one is a truck person. Majority of people who own trucks do not use it as a truck... rather it's used like a glorified car or SUV. That clearly makes for two types of truck buyers, with two types of needs and wants. An electric truck is not for professionals - it's for your office commuter who likes the idea of a truck. The Lightning fits that person perfectly, even if it's not a "good truck" by truck standards. The problem was Ford billed it as a worksite truck for professionals.

grecy 3y ago

it will begin modernizing the site in the second quarter of 2024 Ford has said it wants the production capacity to sell 2 million EVs a year globally by the end of 2026 So Ford's stated goal is to produce the same number of EVs in 2027 that Tesla will produce in 2023.

itsoktocry 3y ago
>So Ford's stated goal is to produce the same number of EVs in 2027 that Tesla will produce in 2023. And infinity more ICE vehicles than Tesla will build in 2023. What is your point? It doesn't matter what any non-Tesla company says, the Tesla fans will say it's not enough or unattainable.
- grecy 3y ago
  > What is your point? My point was to show the reality of the situation. Not to say Tesla are the best (I've never even had one), but just show the state of play.
r00fus 3y ago
All the better for consumers who want EVs.

midnightdiesel 3y ago

They still need to spend at least as much on fixing their continual quality and software problems.

joewadcan 3y ago

I'd bet that Ford is the only legacy American brand that will make it to 2033. And it's because of their heavy investment to manufacture more and not just assemble - great to see it happen

yegle 3y ago

Oakville employs 3,000 people, and though salaried, skilled-trade and "some" production workers will continue work through the six-month transformation that begins in the second quarter of 2024, temporarily laid-off employees will be back before the end of next year, said Tony Savoni, plant manager. So 6 months of unemployment for presumably most of the 3000 employees.

outside1234 3y ago

I'm super excited about our EV future. All we need is for V2G (Vehicle to Grid) and V2H (Vehicle to Home) technologies to land.

r00fus 3y ago
Lots of EVs can support V2H/V2G already - VW ID4, Ford F150 Lightning, Nissan Leaf, etc. 2023 is a big year as companies like Enphase will roll out bidirectional charging support for solar installations [1]. Got a powerwall? How about an additional 5 from your Leaf (or 10 from your Lighting)? Pretty exciting. [1] https://enphase.com/ev-chargers/bidirectional https://enphase.com/ev-chargers/bidirectional