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When reading crypto clownworld stories like this, it is easy and fun to observe that cryptocurrency is a satire of the real (or "fiat", if you prefer) financial

When reading crypto clownworld stories like this, it is easy and fun to observe that cryptocurrency is a satire of the real (or "fiat", if you prefer) financial system. Less fun, but far more important, is to note how incredibly (infinitely?) subtle this satire is: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22352840 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22352840

reisse 3y ago
One thinks about crypto as a clownworld only until one had to work with or inside the real financial system. Techincally, it is in no way better than crypto. The only difference is that in real financial system there is a strong legal cover for all the technical and security fuckups. Like, stealing from bank by exploiting their 10-years old Windows XP ATM connected to the internet is 10-years-in-jail offence, while stealing crypto may be hard or impossible to prosecute in many jurisdictions.
- xirdstl 3y ago
  That only difference is an extremely important difference
- rossdavidh 3y ago
  My impression is that there is a lot more auditing going on in the conventional financial system. Not to say that it's not bad, but there are at least some (legit) outside eyeballs on your system.
  - piyh 3y ago
    My financial company has amazing enforcement around code quality, deployments strategies, separation of concerns, testing enforcement, escalation, approvals, backups, minimum security standards, vulnerability remediation and so much more. All of this is aimed at being able to keep compliant at scale. It's a large burden, but it's one you take when you hold people's money.
- VHRanger 3y ago
  Also, banking is dealing with massive legacy codebases. You get to write your own new stuff in crypto, there aren't excuses for fucking up on best practices
- LapsangGuzzler 3y ago
  > while stealing crypto may be hard or impossible to prosecute in many jurisdictions. This is one of the inherent contradictions of crypto. If the ultimate goal of crypto is to create a financial system that is free of government control, then that system must also be free of the justice system because that's the government too. Asking people whose salaries are paid for with tax dollars to help you recover stolen crypto while simultaneously trying to avoid taxes and government oversight is so ironic.
  - reisse 3y ago
    It's not really a contradiction. People who want financial system free of government control and people who want government to prosecute for crypto crimes are mostly different people. The latter usually care about 100% APR on dollar and other scammy promises, and not about any real crypto benefits. When they get burned, they want government to step in and regulate. The former don't care much that system allows to scam people (the "it's your fault if you were scammed" attitude), they care more that it's free from regulations.
    - knorker 3y ago
      > People who want financial system free of government control and people who want government to prosecute for crypto crimes are mostly different people. Are they? I'm not so sure. Could you elaborate? The whole selling point of cryptocurrencies seems to be to start from scratch, without those pesky KYC/AML and tax laws. Traditional banking is not a natural law. It's man-made. The benefits cryptocurrencies have over traditional banking seem to all come either directly or indirectly from the extent to which they do not have the man-made rules and laws. Basically: It is hard to send money from A to B because of laws. The set of people who like cryptocurrency is not small. The number of anarchists is vanishingly small. People want anarchism (complete freedom) and unregulated cryptocurrency until someone else uses that anarchism against them, and then they want regulation, post-facto. It's not different people. It's the same people at different times; the times they're affected and the times they're not.
      - 3y ago
- lern_too_spel 3y ago
  The reason for this is cross-border controls. If North Korea steals your crypto, you have no recourse.
- WeylandYutani 3y ago
  Nobody wants to be their own bank. That's the mistake crypto makes. Banks were invented because it offloads the risk and hassle of handling money.
  - anecdotal1 3y ago
    The still living members of the Silent Generation would disagree. They still don't trust banks and the banks have once again proven themselves to be untrustworthy.
    - Eisenstein 3y ago
      > The still living members of the Silent Generation would disagree. Never heard of them. They are incredibly effective at living up to their name. > They still don't trust banks Neither do I. I also don't trust my cell phone provider or the grocery store or the company that makes the web browser I use. > the banks have once again proven themselves to be untrustworthy. That's because they are. That's why we have a system of laws and regulations in place which kinda work at keeping them from screwing over most people, most of the time. But not always and not everyone. It is a work in progress.
    - oblio 3y ago
      I come from a country which is under-banked. It used to be non-banked, because in 1990 in Romania there were no commercial banks. Trust me, being non-banked/under-banked is not better. What you want is decent banks, not no banks at all. The alternatives are all awful from a combination of peace of mind, convenience, etc.
    - TheGigaChad 3y ago
      [dead]
    - throwaway2037 3y ago
      Google tells me that Silent Generation: people born from 1928 to 1945 I assume you are trying to hint about the Great Depression and the banking crises that went with it?

reisse 3y ago

One thinks about crypto as a clownworld only until one had to work with or inside the real financial system. Techincally, it is in no way better than crypto. The only difference is that in real financial system there is a strong legal cover for all the technical and security fuckups. Like, stealing from bank by exploiting their 10-years old Windows XP ATM connected to the internet is 10-years-in-jail offence, while stealing crypto may be hard or impossible to prosecute in many jurisdictions.

xirdstl 3y ago
That only difference is an extremely important difference
rossdavidh 3y ago
My impression is that there is a lot more auditing going on in the conventional financial system. Not to say that it's not bad, but there are at least some (legit) outside eyeballs on your system.
- piyh 3y ago
  My financial company has amazing enforcement around code quality, deployments strategies, separation of concerns, testing enforcement, escalation, approvals, backups, minimum security standards, vulnerability remediation and so much more. All of this is aimed at being able to keep compliant at scale. It's a large burden, but it's one you take when you hold people's money.
VHRanger 3y ago
Also, banking is dealing with massive legacy codebases. You get to write your own new stuff in crypto, there aren't excuses for fucking up on best practices
LapsangGuzzler 3y ago
> while stealing crypto may be hard or impossible to prosecute in many jurisdictions. This is one of the inherent contradictions of crypto. If the ultimate goal of crypto is to create a financial system that is free of government control, then that system must also be free of the justice system because that's the government too. Asking people whose salaries are paid for with tax dollars to help you recover stolen crypto while simultaneously trying to avoid taxes and government oversight is so ironic.
- reisse 3y ago
  It's not really a contradiction. People who want financial system free of government control and people who want government to prosecute for crypto crimes are mostly different people. The latter usually care about 100% APR on dollar and other scammy promises, and not about any real crypto benefits. When they get burned, they want government to step in and regulate. The former don't care much that system allows to scam people (the "it's your fault if you were scammed" attitude), they care more that it's free from regulations.
  - knorker 3y ago
    > People who want financial system free of government control and people who want government to prosecute for crypto crimes are mostly different people. Are they? I'm not so sure. Could you elaborate? The whole selling point of cryptocurrencies seems to be to start from scratch, without those pesky KYC/AML and tax laws. Traditional banking is not a natural law. It's man-made. The benefits cryptocurrencies have over traditional banking seem to all come either directly or indirectly from the extent to which they do not have the man-made rules and laws. Basically: It is hard to send money from A to B because of laws. The set of people who like cryptocurrency is not small. The number of anarchists is vanishingly small. People want anarchism (complete freedom) and unregulated cryptocurrency until someone else uses that anarchism against them, and then they want regulation, post-facto. It's not different people. It's the same people at different times; the times they're affected and the times they're not.
    - 3y ago
lern_too_spel 3y ago
The reason for this is cross-border controls. If North Korea steals your crypto, you have no recourse.
WeylandYutani 3y ago
Nobody wants to be their own bank. That's the mistake crypto makes. Banks were invented because it offloads the risk and hassle of handling money.
- anecdotal1 3y ago
  The still living members of the Silent Generation would disagree. They still don't trust banks and the banks have once again proven themselves to be untrustworthy.
  - Eisenstein 3y ago
    > The still living members of the Silent Generation would disagree. Never heard of them. They are incredibly effective at living up to their name. > They still don't trust banks Neither do I. I also don't trust my cell phone provider or the grocery store or the company that makes the web browser I use. > the banks have once again proven themselves to be untrustworthy. That's because they are. That's why we have a system of laws and regulations in place which kinda work at keeping them from screwing over most people, most of the time. But not always and not everyone. It is a work in progress.
  - oblio 3y ago
    I come from a country which is under-banked. It used to be non-banked, because in 1990 in Romania there were no commercial banks. Trust me, being non-banked/under-banked is not better. What you want is decent banks, not no banks at all. The alternatives are all awful from a combination of peace of mind, convenience, etc.
  - TheGigaChad 3y ago
    [dead]
  - throwaway2037 3y ago
    Google tells me that Silent Generation: people born from 1928 to 1945 I assume you are trying to hint about the Great Depression and the banking crises that went with it?