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Afghanistan has brought numerous superpowers to their knees (Britain, Soviet Union, American), it will be interesting to see if the same thing occurs to the Chi

Afghanistan has brought numerous superpowers to their knees (Britain, Soviet Union, American), it will be interesting to see if the same thing occurs to the Chinese.

squarefoot 4y ago
It won't. Investment and occupation aren't the same thing. And we (as westerners) better be prepared to think seriously about Africa, before China, which already started the process, turns a good part of it into one of their bigger development playgrounds.
- boeingUH60 4y ago
  China loaned a lot of money to my country (Nigeria). Most of it was spent on bogus infrastructure projects with little yield and siphoned into various levels, and now our debt servicing literally exceeds revenue [1]. A typical African country...useless and corrupt. 1- https://www.premiumtimesng.com/regional/nwest/544216-nigeria-broke-as-debt-payment-exceeds-revenue.html?tztc=1 https://www.premiumtimesng.com/regional/nwest/544216-nigeria...
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    This is not some Chinese invented tactic. China is now doing what the Western powers did to them centuries ago (remember the opium wars). This is nothing new, the same thing happened in Eastern Europe after the fall of comunism. My country took on many bad loans form the IMF, World Bank, etc. and all that borrowed money went into useless projects of the oligarch owned companies, and to pay off the massive debts, the country was forced to sell of various state assets (oil & gas fields, mines, etc) to western owned enterprises. It's a form of legal economic colonialism that doesn't involve firing a single bullet. We lend you money we know you won't be able to pay back because we're doing the deal with your corrupt leaders who also get a cut for indebting their country. And when the collection day comes and you can't pay, we'll take everything of value you have and your taxpayers will have to work their butts off to pay the loans. Genius strategy. China is just the latest player to enter this game but the rich west has been playing it for much longer, like Belgium using slaves to extract minerals in Congo.
    - NicoJuicy 4y ago
      Opium wars is > 150 years ago, the world has changed a lot since then, lol. We have electricity by now, my opinion takes into account post internet age > 1990. IMF does conditional loans, so it would ( in theory) improve the country, because something is not going well atm. ( Eg. Greece). > Greece has repaid ahead of schedule 2.7 billion euros ($2.87 billion) of loans owed to euro zone countries under the first bailout it received during its decade-long debt crisis, a finance ministry official told Reuters on Thursday.15 dec 2022 China loans money and uses their own workers with that money to export their excess infrastructure building capacity. The country itselve doesn't have any benefit for local workers, only China benefits. All those projects presented with grand prestige by China 5-10 years ago are never mentioned anymore. Nigeria, Pakistan, ... It's not hard to see why either.
    - throwaway2990 4y ago
      > My country took on many bad loans form the IMF, World Bank, etc. and all that borrowed money went into useless projects of the oligarch owned companies, and to pay off the massive debts, the country was forced to sell of various state assets (oil & gas fields, mines, etc) to western owned enterprises. IMF / World banks loans are only given based on various factors which in include the ability to pay the loan back. They don’t take assets. This is what happened with Sri Lanka. The IMF and World Bank refused loans because they deemed the risk high and chance of loans being paid back low. China did the loans at a higher rate with projects being won by Chinese companies and forfeit of loans being given assets for 100 year leases. You can try justify it anyway you want. China loans are debt traps. Plain and simple.
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        >They don’t take assets. They don't take assets but to get money, they make you sell your assets to the western conglomerates of the western governments they're associated with. Got rich oil & gas fields? Great, because BP, Chevron, Halliburton, Total, Shell and Exxon are waiting in line to buy them below market value. You don't know how deep the corruption rabbit hole goes here. >Sri Lanka Sri Lanka was already too broke to be worth it. They have no natural resources for the international loan-sharks to profit off of. China can profit, not monetarily, but they can set up military bases around the Asia-Pacific to challenge the US's position in the region. >China loans are debt traps. Plain and simple. IMF & World Bank loans aren't that much different, unless you drank their cool aid. They're still debt traps for the population of those countries no matter how you try to spin it. I know this because I've lived through it and my relative living there are still paying the price. Have you?
  - alephnerd 4y ago
    The whole point of such investments is to be siphoned. You can't directly pay a bribe (do it enough and at a large enough size and you open yourself to FCPA violations which block access to Western markets by making you toxic and piercing the corporate veil) but you can always loop contracting companies owned by the political elite of your country. This is why Chinese construction consortiums in Sri Lanka built infrastructure in Rajapraksa's home district and why a Chinese consortium bought a 49% stake in Hondutel - Honduras's primary mobile provider, which is owned by the family of the husband (and former President) of the current President of Honduras. American companies used to do this as well (eg. According to a close relative, DEC's India operation would always use MSPs affiliated with senior Indian Air Force officials to land deals. When the US cracked down on such tactics with the amended FCPA in 1998, those contracts went to Israeli companies instead even after the Kargil sanctions were lifted).
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  Chinese investment is notable because it is new, but the western world is still heavily invested in Africa as well, and has been for a long time.
- 650REDHAIR 4y ago
  That’s easy to say now, but when in-fighting and an eventual civil war ripple across Afghanistan China will need to either protect their investment with boots on the ground or lose their investment.
  - fspeech 4y ago
    Like someone else pointed out in the thread, it was just MOU at this stage. But if past was any guide, they would rather lose their investment than putting boots on the ground (cue Libya, Syria etc).
zozin 4y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- 10xDev 4y ago
  >The total death toll for American service men in Afghanistan was lower than the murder rate in many American cities. Well that's good to hear. I was worried more people in the military at war were dying over civilians. /s

Afghanistan has brought numerous superpowers to their knees (Britain, Soviet Union, American), it will be interesting to see if the same thing occurs to the Chinese.

squarefoot 4y ago

It won't. Investment and occupation aren't the same thing. And we (as westerners) better be prepared to think seriously about Africa, before China, which already started the process, turns a good part of it into one of their bigger development playgrounds.

boeingUH60 4y ago
China loaned a lot of money to my country (Nigeria). Most of it was spent on bogus infrastructure projects with little yield and siphoned into various levels, and now our debt servicing literally exceeds revenue [1]. A typical African country...useless and corrupt. 1- https://www.premiumtimesng.com/regional/nwest/544216-nigeria-broke-as-debt-payment-exceeds-revenue.html?tztc=1 https://www.premiumtimesng.com/regional/nwest/544216-nigeria...
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  This is not some Chinese invented tactic. China is now doing what the Western powers did to them centuries ago (remember the opium wars). This is nothing new, the same thing happened in Eastern Europe after the fall of comunism. My country took on many bad loans form the IMF, World Bank, etc. and all that borrowed money went into useless projects of the oligarch owned companies, and to pay off the massive debts, the country was forced to sell of various state assets (oil & gas fields, mines, etc) to western owned enterprises. It's a form of legal economic colonialism that doesn't involve firing a single bullet. We lend you money we know you won't be able to pay back because we're doing the deal with your corrupt leaders who also get a cut for indebting their country. And when the collection day comes and you can't pay, we'll take everything of value you have and your taxpayers will have to work their butts off to pay the loans. Genius strategy. China is just the latest player to enter this game but the rich west has been playing it for much longer, like Belgium using slaves to extract minerals in Congo.
  - NicoJuicy 4y ago
    Opium wars is > 150 years ago, the world has changed a lot since then, lol. We have electricity by now, my opinion takes into account post internet age > 1990. IMF does conditional loans, so it would ( in theory) improve the country, because something is not going well atm. ( Eg. Greece). > Greece has repaid ahead of schedule 2.7 billion euros ($2.87 billion) of loans owed to euro zone countries under the first bailout it received during its decade-long debt crisis, a finance ministry official told Reuters on Thursday.15 dec 2022 China loans money and uses their own workers with that money to export their excess infrastructure building capacity. The country itselve doesn't have any benefit for local workers, only China benefits. All those projects presented with grand prestige by China 5-10 years ago are never mentioned anymore. Nigeria, Pakistan, ... It's not hard to see why either.
  - throwaway2990 4y ago
    > My country took on many bad loans form the IMF, World Bank, etc. and all that borrowed money went into useless projects of the oligarch owned companies, and to pay off the massive debts, the country was forced to sell of various state assets (oil & gas fields, mines, etc) to western owned enterprises. IMF / World banks loans are only given based on various factors which in include the ability to pay the loan back. They don’t take assets. This is what happened with Sri Lanka. The IMF and World Bank refused loans because they deemed the risk high and chance of loans being paid back low. China did the loans at a higher rate with projects being won by Chinese companies and forfeit of loans being given assets for 100 year leases. You can try justify it anyway you want. China loans are debt traps. Plain and simple.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >They don’t take assets. They don't take assets but to get money, they make you sell your assets to the western conglomerates of the western governments they're associated with. Got rich oil & gas fields? Great, because BP, Chevron, Halliburton, Total, Shell and Exxon are waiting in line to buy them below market value. You don't know how deep the corruption rabbit hole goes here. >Sri Lanka Sri Lanka was already too broke to be worth it. They have no natural resources for the international loan-sharks to profit off of. China can profit, not monetarily, but they can set up military bases around the Asia-Pacific to challenge the US's position in the region. >China loans are debt traps. Plain and simple. IMF & World Bank loans aren't that much different, unless you drank their cool aid. They're still debt traps for the population of those countries no matter how you try to spin it. I know this because I've lived through it and my relative living there are still paying the price. Have you?
- alephnerd 4y ago
  The whole point of such investments is to be siphoned. You can't directly pay a bribe (do it enough and at a large enough size and you open yourself to FCPA violations which block access to Western markets by making you toxic and piercing the corporate veil) but you can always loop contracting companies owned by the political elite of your country. This is why Chinese construction consortiums in Sri Lanka built infrastructure in Rajapraksa's home district and why a Chinese consortium bought a 49% stake in Hondutel - Honduras's primary mobile provider, which is owned by the family of the husband (and former President) of the current President of Honduras. American companies used to do this as well (eg. According to a close relative, DEC's India operation would always use MSPs affiliated with senior Indian Air Force officials to land deals. When the US cracked down on such tactics with the amended FCPA in 1998, those contracts went to Israeli companies instead even after the Kargil sanctions were lifted).
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
Chinese investment is notable because it is new, but the western world is still heavily invested in Africa as well, and has been for a long time.
650REDHAIR 4y ago
That’s easy to say now, but when in-fighting and an eventual civil war ripple across Afghanistan China will need to either protect their investment with boots on the ground or lose their investment.
- fspeech 4y ago
  Like someone else pointed out in the thread, it was just MOU at this stage. But if past was any guide, they would rather lose their investment than putting boots on the ground (cue Libya, Syria etc).

zozin 4y ago

[flagged]

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
10xDev 4y ago
>The total death toll for American service men in Afghanistan was lower than the murder rate in many American cities. Well that's good to hear. I was worried more people in the military at war were dying over civilians. /s