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The best kimchi is made in earthenware pots
- wfurney 4y agohttps://archive.is/cy3gq https://archive.is/cy3gq
- pcurve 4y agoTIL: earthenware pots (ongi in Korean) is porous, which helps regulate amount of carbon dioxide released during fermentation process. One thing the article neglects to mention is, importance of temperature for ongi to work effectively. The lactic acid bacteria produced during kimchi fermentation is most active right around freezing temperature, so ongi needs to be buried underground in mid December.
- jmole 4y agowhy cant you just pop it in the fridge?
- pcurve 4y agoYou can, and most people do put them in dedicated kimchi fridge that optimizes fermentation process (co2, bacteria, etc) and keeps it fresh longer once it's done fermenting. I have no doubt that you can make superior kimchi in ongi, but only if you're an expert. Regular folks would get better and more consistent result sticking with 'ongi' powered by electricity ;-D
- newaccount74 4y agoI thought the main reason why people use separate refridgerators for Kimchi is the smell.
- jojobas 4y agoAnd it definitely is. We manage to do tolerable kimchi, kimchi-flavoured everything was not so impressive.
- kijin 4y agoKimchi refrigerators tend to maintain a temperature just around or even slightly below freezing, which would be bad for regular fruits and vegetables. (Kimchi has a lower freezing point because of its salinity.) The temperature can be adjusted to produce the type of kimchi you like, optimized for fast fermentation or long-term storage, or even turned all the way down so you can use the whole machine as a giant freezer. They're really versatile. The oversized compartments are perfect for storing a large amount of galbi, watermelons, beer, etc. especially since you can set different temperatures for each compartment. I don't know anyone who uses one exclusively for kimchi anymore.
- nerdponx 4y agoHah, my refrigerator is too cold in one area in the back and freezes vegetables if I leave them there too long. Might be perfect for kimchi!
- giantg2 4y agoThe near freezing temperature should only be for preservation. Usually fermentation processes start around room temperature and then move progressively lower. Lactic acid bacteria thrives around 65F-72F, which is the supposed to be the ideal starting temperature range. After even a day or two at that temperature it has established itself and enough acidity to safely lower the temperature with minimal risk of other organisms outcompeting it. Below 41F lactic acid bacteria stop growing and are almost entirely inactive.
- kijin 4y agoYou're right, which is why kimchi refrigerators have a setting that keeps the temperature high for a few days (you can customize how high) and automatically switches to preservation mode afterward. In the past, people made a huge amount of kimchi in the fall when cabbages are cheap, and expected it to last until the next year's first harvest of fresh vegetables. The near-freezing temperature ensures that the kimchi remains good for up to 6 months. Some kimchi can be aged for 3 years or more. So of course the preservation method is focused on stopping almost all microbial activity, including that of lactic acid bacteria. The goal is to maintain a sort of equilibrium for as long as possible. The onggi probably also helps with that. Nowadays, many people in Korea buy pre-fermented kimchi instead of making their own. Several national brands and dozens of independent sellers with wildly different styles can all deliver kimchi to your door. In that case, you either set the fridge to preservation mode immediately, or keep it warm for another day or two if you prefer to ferment it a little more.
- diamondfist25 4y agoI went to my Korean friends place and thought there were ice cream in the fridge. I opened the fridge and boy did I regret it
- devonkim 4y agoIt’s for both reasons. If you have a separate refrigerator you might as well optimize it for the stuff you’re trying to store. Think wine refrigerators in the West.
- treme 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimchi_refrigerator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimchi_refrigerator
- luispauloml 4y agoYou can, but you'd better use a kimchi fridge.¹ ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimchi_refrigerator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimchi_refrigerator
- varsketiz 4y agoHmm, do you know how near to freezing temperature it has to be? I'm really fond of fermentation and my understanding is that fermentation slows down and eventually stops at 3 celsius.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- giantg2 4y agoOne other thing not mentioned is that with pores, the bacteria establishes itself in the material for future batches. At least that's my theory/experience. Same thing for wooden kraut barrels.
- IanCal 4y ago> The lactic acid bacteria produced during kimchi fermentation is most active right around freezing temperature, The bacteria are definitely not more active near freezing compared to a warm room, ferments happen much quicker when it's warm.
- JumpCrisscross 4y agoI remember the first time I ate great kimchi in New York. For years I thought nothing of cravings for it, which came seldom but intensely—after travelling, a lot of drinking, or an upset stomach. Now that I look at research on lactic acid bacteria [1] and their probiotic effects, it strikes me as less coïncidental. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid_bacteria https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid_bacteria
- echelon 4y agoI had no idea you could use a diaeresis with "coincidental", but lo and behold Google shows lots of people using this formulation. What rule is this? That was harder to turn up.
- ThePowerOfFuet 4y agoIt's the same reason that coöperate and reëducation and naïve should be written that way: it indicates the second vowel is pronounced separately. Chickens live in coops, and much aquatic life lives among reeds and bullrushes; coop and reed are pronounced very differently than the words above.
- nwellnhof 4y agoEnglish pronunciation is so irregular that using diaereses is pure snobbery.
- SamBam 4y agoIt might indeed be snobbery, but your explanation that English pronunciation is so irregular doesn't lead to that. If anything the irregularity of English spelling and pronunciation ought to make it more populist to use symbols that help disambiguate the correct pronunciation, so that a struggling reader won't pronounce "cooperate" as "coup-erate."
- kleton 4y agoNew Yorker rule
- distantaidenn 4y agoHeh, when I first moved to Seoul, I noticed those big pots (onggi/옹기) everywhere. You might see 2 or 3, or 20 in front of a house, building, etc. I asked my friend what was the deal, and she goes, "Oh, they're making kimchi." Blew my mind how ubiquitous it was. Love me some real homemade kimchi, especially when it has that slight fizzy bite from a good ferment.
- klyrs 4y agoThe first time I had fizzy kimchi it blew my mind. Why does this feel like it's carbonated? Well, simple: it's carbonated. Then, I noticed that the container was gently bubbling. As an outsider to the culture who just loves spicy and/or fermented goodies, it was almost alarming, but it tasted fresh and delicious and I quickly convinced myself that it's entirely plausible for CO2 to dissolve into the water in cabbage just as easy as water that isn't in cabbage; that this is just advanced fermentation technology beyond my ken. But now I want carbonated dill pickles. But fear not, dear reader: this delicacy isn't only available in Korea. My city has a sizeable population of Korean diaspora, and local grocers sell excellent kimchi (as well as a selection of kimchi refrigerators).
- hayst4ck 4y agoYou can also carbonate grapes.
- kijin 4y agoOr malted barley -- the most popular fermented, carbonated drink in the world.
- nrp 4y agoIt’s also fairly easy to make your own. The wonderful thing about that is you can sample your kimchi periodically as it ferments to learn what stage of fermentation you enjoy most. As it gets really sour, it also becomes amazing as an ingredient or grilled on its own.
- poulpy123 4y agoWhat a coincidence, few hour ago I bought a pot to make choucroute (also fermented cabbage)
- sgu999 4y agoOooh I had no idea we had these. I'll get one and make my next batch of kimchi in it. Merci l'Alsacien·ne!
- cmckn 4y agoI’ve made a dozen or so batches of kimchi, none of them spectacular; and I’d like to blame it on the vessel, though it’s probably my lack of skill. Besides an ongi, you really need fresh minari (water dropwort). It’s available year round at your local Korean grocer, though sometimes sporadically. Now I’m craving kimchi!
- thiagocsf 4y agoI’ve made it about the same number of times, and I’ve enjoyed them all. Maybe I don’t know what really good kimchi tastes like. It lasts for a long time in the fridge and, imo, it gets better with time. The ingredients I use aren’t always the same, aside from the cabbage, salt and garlic. I’ve used different combinations of carrot, spring onion, chilli flakes, ginger, fish sauce. I’m keen to try the anchovy paste that I just learnt about.
- cmckn 3y agoLate reply — but if nothing else I think you need saeu-jeot/새우젓 (fermented salted shrimp). It’s an odd thing to have in your fridge, no doubt; but it kick-starts the fermentation process and gives a real depth of flavor. The minari gives a really traditional flavor. Oh, and matchsticks of Korean radish (mu) ensure you end up with a lot of juicy kimchi brine to use in stews and such. :)
- sourcecodeplz 4y agoJust boil some water, add some vinegar and some spices, and pour over the cabbage. That's it. Will it taste the same as kimchi? About 90%.
- CapstanRoller 4y agoPickling is fundamentally different from fermentation. Their only commonalities are being methods of preserving food and having a broadly sour taste. Kimchi is much more complex than simple brined cabbage![0] "Pickled cabbage with added spices" and "kimchi" are different foods with different flavor profiles, just like Ruby and Python have vaguely similar styles yet entirely different vibes. [0] https://mykoreankitchen.com/kimchi-recipe/#recipe https://mykoreankitchen.com/kimchi-recipe/#recipe
- morelisp 4y agoThis is what every corner sushi shop in Germany does for their "Kimchi" and it's pretty awful.
- mauvehaus 4y agoI believe you, but can we back up to the bit about sushi joints serving kimchi and expand a bit on that?
- morelisp 4y agoI don't think I can do justice to the whole history of why there are so many Vietnamese-run sushi restaurants serving this style of "kimchi" in this country, sorry. I can barely even explain the crispy asparagus and raw bell pepper maki.
- tus666 4y agoWhy is this on HN?
- sverhagen 4y agoYou'll find a lot of submissions on HN then to put that comment on. From the site guidelines on what to submit: "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity". Whether kimchi qualifies is utterly subjective.
- mrabcx 4y agoThe article starts with the statement: "For more than a thousand years, the spicy ...". I'm sure some kind of kimchi was made thousand years ago, but they definitively did not have chili back in the days. Chili must be a recent addition resulting in the kimchi we see today dating only a few hundred of years.
- morelisp 4y agoGochugaru only became a common ingredient in kimchi in the 1700s (before that black pepper was used for the jang), but maybe more surprisingly napa cabbage only became common during the 1800s.
- BlockerBrews 4y agoDo you have any more info on this black pepper version?
- detourdog 4y agohttps://medium.com/@alexjanmaat2/a-short-history-of-a-traditional-korean-food-kimchi-ae80ad9542a3 https://medium.com/@alexjanmaat2/a-short-history-of-a-tradit... Found this
- morelisp 4y agoNo, sorry, this was told to me by a Korean colleague years ago. IIRC he said it was mostly black pepper but sometimes something closer to Szechuan pepper, which Wikipedia tells me today is probably https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanthoxylum_piperitum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanthoxylum_piperitum. His claim about napa cabbage is easy to verify (and of course daikon and other vegetables are are still very common in kimchi, so it's easy to imagine kimchi without it) but I can't any more details about the supposed black pepper version.
- devonkim 4y agoI believe the 고추가루 was derived from a Portuguese chili plant which explains the timing. Why Japan didn’t go for more spiciness is not clear. Lots of Korean recipes seem to have parallels with Szechuan cooking methods and approaches (read: lots of bold, spicy flavors) but I’m not sure if it’s merely coincidence.
- srameshc 4y agoI don't know much about kimchi but the best pickels (achar) in India were made in earthenware pots. Also some curries and lentils taste best when cooked in earthenware pots. Last but not the least, chai when served in the earthen pots.
- throwaway33381 4y agoHonestly, not really a fan of earthenware pots due to how easy they are to make you can't really trust the quality of them. I know in India a lot of vendors use dung in their mixture and well... It's just that honestly you can't really tell if they have anything else wrong with them at a glance, overtime they might ware and degrade and lead to possible contamination, I don't think that they're really safe to use. Even the glazes can be problematic and sometimes you just won't even know. Often contaminating the food.
- phonypc 4y agoSurely the concern with dung isn't biological contamination? That seems like it should be impossible given the firing process.
- thinkofher 4y agoThis probably explains why my grandma's homemade polish dill pickles were so superior in comparison with any others that I had tried. She was using earthenware pots too.
- altgeek 4y agoSmaller sizes of this pottery are also used to produce fermented hot pepper paste (Gochujang , 고추장). I remember rows and rows of onggi is a corner of my grandparent's farm. It definitely tinged the air with a unique scent.
- iamerroragent 4y agoI just want to chime in to say I find Gochujang is amazingly and incredibly delicious.
- sideproject 4y agoGrowing up in Korea, I remember my grandmother making kimchi and then putting them in large earthenware pots and then digging large holes in the ground then putting them inside. In winter time, when it snows (that's how I remember it), she'll go out and grab some of this kimchi. The taste? I salivate now every time I think about it. To this day, I have not tasted kimchi as delicious as that - can't say it's objective. It's my nostalgia, childhood memories etc. But I'm so grateful for that taste memory.
- WhiteOwlLion 4y agoEveryone has a different taste, but I do concur with you. Your grandma and my grandma kept to the traditional manual methods and that tastes best. The chilli peppers cultivated in Korea have a different sweeter taste IMO and the cheaper ones imported from China (while cheaper) do not hold up in terms of the sweetness and balanced spice. The earthenware pot also act as a refrigerant by being buried in the ground. Since the pot is placed below the frostline, kimchi is available through winter.
- timeon 4y agoSame goes for sauerkraut.
- galleywest200 4y agoIf anybody wants to get into making fermented foods at home I 100% recommend _The Art Of Fermentation by Dr. Sandor Katz_. Be warned, it is thorough enough to be a text book.
- jonjlee 4y agoWhat’s always amazed me about the kimchi making process, and other fermented products, I suppose, is the vast variation in ingredients that can go into the same dish and still produce the same fermentation process across geographic regions without the introduction of any specific yeast or bacteria strains. You can basically wash and salt napa cabbage, put it on the shelf, and a day later it’s bubbling with edible bacteria. That being said, different batches of kimchi from different people have vastly different flavors as well. There’s a local brand near Seattle called Yummy Kimchi that makes amazing kimchi which we consumed in large quantities. Now that I’m not in the area, it’s been hard to find kimchi that is as good. The product is highly amenable to shipping but because of the variations in taste without a standard way to describe them, I’d be forced to try many batches from different places which is frustrating, time consuming, and wasteful. Anyone have luck discovering a shipped kimchi they love?
- bmitc 4y agoFor interesting but funny coverage of this, the show Korea No. 1 on Netflix might be interesting to people.
- contingencies 4y agoFYI Korea has one of the highest rates of stomach cancer in the world. It used to be number one. This is supposed to be diet related. https://www.wcrf.org/cancer-trends/stomach-cancer-statistics/ https://www.wcrf.org/cancer-trends/stomach-cancer-statistics...