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An important step for me was practicing mindfulness meditation. It's literally training the skill of recognizing your thoughts and being able to step back from

by Sakos 4y ago

An important step for me was practicing mindfulness meditation. It's literally training the skill of recognizing your thoughts and being able to step back from them to observe. That distance is important for, say, figuring out what your triggers are or deciding how to handle these thoughts. Honestly, everybody should be practicing mindfulness meditation and cognitive-based therapy. It's a powerful combination. Also, see a therapist. A decent one is worth their weight in gold. Even though I was practicing these things, it was clear it wasn't a perfect fix and adding a third-party perspective was a huge help in learning how to regulate my thoughts and emotions. Some things we simply can't solve completely on our own.

Timon3 4y ago
Same here, mindfulness is a great thing! Initially I had some troubles getting into it, because I always felt I had to wait for the right time to do it. But I've since learned a couple of techniques that can help you notice whether you're ruminating, and to then transition to a more mindful state. It's been a quality of life-improvement for me, maybe it helps somebody else: - wear a small rubber band or something similar on your wrist. If you notice yourself ruminating, give yourself a little flick with it - the very slight pain signal pulls you into the here & now! - designate a time and place to ruminate a bit when you feel the need, but have a timer running, and do something else afterwards. Controlled release in a way! - generally, if you catch yourself ruminating, try to think of something indicating "STOP" or similar. Personally I imagine a big STOP road sign and also "shout" it in my internal voice. It might sound silly, but after actively training for a few weeks you'll have much more freedom in your thoughts!
- ZitchDog 4y ago
  Just a heads up for anyone reading this, as a mindfulness coach I wouldn’t recommend this technique. The rubber band and “stop” voice are pretty harsh and rather we want to practice inner kindness and letting go.
  - ccooffee 4y ago
    Do you have an alternative recommendation for "strong" reminders? "Counting five breaths" is a tool I got from some mindfulness resource. Focus on the breath as much as you can and count the exhales. When you get to five, begin again from one. Repeat until settled. If I'm fairly out-of-it, it may take me 10 repeats of counting five breaths to center myself. Sometimes it doesn't work at all.
  - Sakos 4y ago
    Weird. Telling myself to stop works and doesn't feel harsh. It's possible to be kind and accepting and to recognize what's happening and give yourself boundaries. Being kind only goes so far if you literally don't stop ruminating. Telling myself to stop, that I've done enough ruminating, that these thoughts aren't going anywhere helpful and I can't change anything right now works far better than most other techniques I've tried. It's just another way of letting go.
  - Timon3 4y ago
    Do you have medical credentials? "Coach" doesn't sound like it, but I don't want to presume. I've learned this from actual therapists, so I'll keep trusting their opinion until I see contrary data.
    - ZitchDog 4y ago
      Interesting. I am definitely not a doctor. If you have medical advice to practice this technique, I would follow it. I will say that I have been practicing mindfulness meditation for 7 years in various traditions and have never come across this technique. It also goes against the definition of mindfulness (paying attention to the present moment without judgement) as it is applying judgement to your thoughts. I have experienced very difficult and dark periods of meditation when I was hard on myself for thinking, and learning to be very kind to myself in meditation was a huge step forward in my practice. Rather than “stop”, I say “thinking” to myself in a kind way.
      - Timon3 4y ago
        I think I wrote my initial comment from a very different perspective, but we know how difficult it is to bring all this across in text :) None of the techniques I described are meant to be judgemental. It's only about helping yourself passively recognize rumination. While it did them I never once felt I was being unkind to myself, since it's neither meant to hurt nor negatively judge. The "STOP" example is literally about picturing something, not about "screaming at yourself". To get back to your initial points - you are definitely correct that you have to approach yourself with kindness, and if you feel that anything I described is unkind, you should find a way that works for you!
jamestimmins 4y ago
Agreed. I have ruminative anxiety and I found mindfulness (via the headspace app) + meds + therapy to be a very potent combo. Mindfulness was especially helpful for alleviating the distress in the moment.
ajb 4y ago
Works for me -> everybody should do it ...is an incredibly common fallacy. I don't say that to dismiss your experience, as I'm sure the things helped you and you are genuinely trying to help others- and that these things can help lots of people. My issue is solely with the word 'everybody' Here is why it is toxic: for people who those things don't work, or for whom the proposed solution is beyond their ability, it's a short step to blaming them for their problems and writing them off. Which is a very common reaction to mental health problems, even among mental health professionals.
- ramraj07 4y ago
  Furthermore, my observations among my colleagues is that the folks who do this meditation among other things are also not really successful at it either, for the most part. A great example is the Parks and Rec clip where Chris and Ron go for meditation [1] - quite an exaggeration to be sure but it is very conflicting that you actively try to not think. In the show the running line is that for someone who tries to do everything right Chris doesn’t really attain inner peace or even true good health. I myself have never meditated much, but have had my dad who used to disappear in to the forest for a few weeks at a time (he has done that all his life, something he learned from his father etc, as part of the culture of a traditional medicinal healer). He meditates. To clarify, he meditates ALL the time. In a loud train. While my mom watches loud annoying soap operas. While lying down. Not on a schedule he puts in the calendar. To him that was the default state of mind. In some ways not very dissimilar to what Ron Swanson does in the clip. Maybe some day I’ll try that out, but it sure ain’t gonna be by popping headphones with an app playing white noise. It’s gotta be a fundamental change in what you do in every step of life. Having said that, it looks like even forced meditation on a schedule still helps a bit. Just don’t expect to be a long term miracle cure. It’s safe to say anything Tim Ferris says works in helping him calm down is likely not a real solution lol. 1. https://youtu.be/7lHARAJFSgw https://youtu.be/7lHARAJFSgw
  - swah 4y ago
    Do you feel its a benefit in his life?
bearika 4y ago
I came here to look for a post just like this. Ruminating is a defense, a response from one's nervous system to a perceived lack of safety. And mindfulness and therapies are very effective in treating the root cause of that nervous system response. Just a shout to say that there are some situations where cognitive-based therapy isn't the optimal answer, where more experiential forms of therapy like IFS or AEDP are far more effective. For example, people who grew up with caretakers who were not able to teach and model proper emotional regulation would likely respond better to experiential therapies vs. cognitive.
yuuuuyu 4y ago
> Honestly, everybody should be practicing mindfulness meditation and cognitive-based therapy. Im my mind, therapy is a remedy to a problem after its diagnosis. If you don't have a problem, you don't do/need therapy. If you do have a problem, start by getting it properly diagnosed by a professional in the area (mental health, physiology, ... any area in which people run to a therapist first thing). Anything else is upside down and potentially a huge waste of time and/or money or worse, possibly without even realizing it.
- gessha 4y ago
  Identifying that you have a problem is sometimes challenging and you might have deeper problems and behaviors that are not immediately visible. Another thing to consider is “preventative” vs “diagnostic” therapy.

by Sakos 4y ago

Timon3 4y ago

Same here, mindfulness is a great thing! Initially I had some troubles getting into it, because I always felt I had to wait for the right time to do it. But I've since learned a couple of techniques that can help you notice whether you're ruminating, and to then transition to a more mindful state. It's been a quality of life-improvement for me, maybe it helps somebody else: - wear a small rubber band or something similar on your wrist. If you notice yourself ruminating, give yourself a little flick with it - the very slight pain signal pulls you into the here & now! - designate a time and place to ruminate a bit when you feel the need, but have a timer running, and do something else afterwards. Controlled release in a way! - generally, if you catch yourself ruminating, try to think of something indicating "STOP" or similar. Personally I imagine a big STOP road sign and also "shout" it in my internal voice. It might sound silly, but after actively training for a few weeks you'll have much more freedom in your thoughts!

ZitchDog 4y ago
Just a heads up for anyone reading this, as a mindfulness coach I wouldn’t recommend this technique. The rubber band and “stop” voice are pretty harsh and rather we want to practice inner kindness and letting go.
- ccooffee 4y ago
  Do you have an alternative recommendation for "strong" reminders? "Counting five breaths" is a tool I got from some mindfulness resource. Focus on the breath as much as you can and count the exhales. When you get to five, begin again from one. Repeat until settled. If I'm fairly out-of-it, it may take me 10 repeats of counting five breaths to center myself. Sometimes it doesn't work at all.
- Sakos 4y ago
  Weird. Telling myself to stop works and doesn't feel harsh. It's possible to be kind and accepting and to recognize what's happening and give yourself boundaries. Being kind only goes so far if you literally don't stop ruminating. Telling myself to stop, that I've done enough ruminating, that these thoughts aren't going anywhere helpful and I can't change anything right now works far better than most other techniques I've tried. It's just another way of letting go.
- Timon3 4y ago
  Do you have medical credentials? "Coach" doesn't sound like it, but I don't want to presume. I've learned this from actual therapists, so I'll keep trusting their opinion until I see contrary data.
  - ZitchDog 4y ago
    Interesting. I am definitely not a doctor. If you have medical advice to practice this technique, I would follow it. I will say that I have been practicing mindfulness meditation for 7 years in various traditions and have never come across this technique. It also goes against the definition of mindfulness (paying attention to the present moment without judgement) as it is applying judgement to your thoughts. I have experienced very difficult and dark periods of meditation when I was hard on myself for thinking, and learning to be very kind to myself in meditation was a huge step forward in my practice. Rather than “stop”, I say “thinking” to myself in a kind way.
    - Timon3 4y ago
      I think I wrote my initial comment from a very different perspective, but we know how difficult it is to bring all this across in text :) None of the techniques I described are meant to be judgemental. It's only about helping yourself passively recognize rumination. While it did them I never once felt I was being unkind to myself, since it's neither meant to hurt nor negatively judge. The "STOP" example is literally about picturing something, not about "screaming at yourself". To get back to your initial points - you are definitely correct that you have to approach yourself with kindness, and if you feel that anything I described is unkind, you should find a way that works for you!

jamestimmins 4y ago

Agreed. I have ruminative anxiety and I found mindfulness (via the headspace app) + meds + therapy to be a very potent combo. Mindfulness was especially helpful for alleviating the distress in the moment.

ajb 4y ago

Works for me -> everybody should do it ...is an incredibly common fallacy. I don't say that to dismiss your experience, as I'm sure the things helped you and you are genuinely trying to help others- and that these things can help lots of people. My issue is solely with the word 'everybody' Here is why it is toxic: for people who those things don't work, or for whom the proposed solution is beyond their ability, it's a short step to blaming them for their problems and writing them off. Which is a very common reaction to mental health problems, even among mental health professionals.

ramraj07 4y ago
Furthermore, my observations among my colleagues is that the folks who do this meditation among other things are also not really successful at it either, for the most part. A great example is the Parks and Rec clip where Chris and Ron go for meditation [1] - quite an exaggeration to be sure but it is very conflicting that you actively try to not think. In the show the running line is that for someone who tries to do everything right Chris doesn’t really attain inner peace or even true good health. I myself have never meditated much, but have had my dad who used to disappear in to the forest for a few weeks at a time (he has done that all his life, something he learned from his father etc, as part of the culture of a traditional medicinal healer). He meditates. To clarify, he meditates ALL the time. In a loud train. While my mom watches loud annoying soap operas. While lying down. Not on a schedule he puts in the calendar. To him that was the default state of mind. In some ways not very dissimilar to what Ron Swanson does in the clip. Maybe some day I’ll try that out, but it sure ain’t gonna be by popping headphones with an app playing white noise. It’s gotta be a fundamental change in what you do in every step of life. Having said that, it looks like even forced meditation on a schedule still helps a bit. Just don’t expect to be a long term miracle cure. It’s safe to say anything Tim Ferris says works in helping him calm down is likely not a real solution lol. 1. https://youtu.be/7lHARAJFSgw https://youtu.be/7lHARAJFSgw
- swah 4y ago
  Do you feel its a benefit in his life?

bearika 4y ago

I came here to look for a post just like this. Ruminating is a defense, a response from one's nervous system to a perceived lack of safety. And mindfulness and therapies are very effective in treating the root cause of that nervous system response. Just a shout to say that there are some situations where cognitive-based therapy isn't the optimal answer, where more experiential forms of therapy like IFS or AEDP are far more effective. For example, people who grew up with caretakers who were not able to teach and model proper emotional regulation would likely respond better to experiential therapies vs. cognitive.

yuuuuyu 4y ago

> Honestly, everybody should be practicing mindfulness meditation and cognitive-based therapy. Im my mind, therapy is a remedy to a problem after its diagnosis. If you don't have a problem, you don't do/need therapy. If you do have a problem, start by getting it properly diagnosed by a professional in the area (mental health, physiology, ... any area in which people run to a therapist first thing). Anything else is upside down and potentially a huge waste of time and/or money or worse, possibly without even realizing it.

gessha 4y ago
Identifying that you have a problem is sometimes challenging and you might have deeper problems and behaviors that are not immediately visible. Another thing to consider is “preventative” vs “diagnostic” therapy.