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The approach I’ve taken is to just keep my TV off the internet (never join a WiFi network) and make it smart via an Apple TV, which I personally believe to have
by ed25519FUUU 4y ago
The approach I’ve taken is to just keep my TV off the internet (never join a WiFi network) and make it smart via an Apple TV, which I personally believe to have the strongest privacy protection of any smart TV device.
Another bonus is my TV UI hasn’t changed despite changing and upgrading TV brands.
- was_a_dev 4y agoHasn't some models (thinking Samsung) been shown to connect to any WiFi network they can? edit: Appears to be an urban legend, with not much substance to back it up!
- codetrotter 4y agoSure but if everyone has WPA2 encryption enabled on their network, such as is the case in my neighbourhood, then there is no network for the TV to connect to anyways.
- midasuni 4y agoAmazon whisper net etc from ring doorbells and other privacy violating things come to mind as possible connections. Mostly theoretical though.
- prmoustache 4y agoCouldn't a device looking for wifi just connect wherever you or your neighbours hit the wps button on their wifi router?
- codetrotter 4y agoDon’t know. I never use the WPS button, nor have I ever seen anyone else use it either. But I think you are right this could potentially let the device connect itself :(
- KerrAvon 4y agoBut that would require an accessible WiFi network. I'm sure someday it'll be impossible because they'll embed 5G chips and do it over cell without involving your consent, but that day isn't here yet.
- ghayes 4y agoSimple, just put it in a Faraday cage.
- modriano 4y agoThe mesh would have to be so fine that you wouldn't be able to see the screen (unless you were inside the "cage").
- lancesells 4y agoSimple, go wired and encase the house in a faraday cage.
- Macha 4y agoNo, this appears to be a HN urban legend. It's always asked in these threads and the closest thing that anyone has been able to provide is one person asking one time on the samsung forums why there tv was connected to the neighbour's wifi (openly in the TV's own menu). So either there's a giant conspiracy which literally nobody else in the world has noticed or attempted to reproduce, or her kids/neighbour/whoever just connected it to the first network that'd work.
- was_a_dev 4y agoFair enough - I think it is most likely something I read via HN
- Lammy 4y agoIt's possible, and that's all that matters IMO
- fshbbdssbbgdd 4y agoIf “possible” is all that matters then you have to include stuff like “I’m on a special list where if I order a monitor from Amazon, they’ll send me a version with a secret chip on the inside of the case that broadcasts my secret TV viewing habits to the NSA.”
- lostlogin 4y agoIt’s too hard on the Unifi line, but Ubiquiti Edgerouters allow some neat rules. Eg if on port 53 and not coming from the Pihole, send back to Pihole. The Samsung was very chatty, but didn’t connect to an unsecured wifi network I had setup for testing. It’s gone now and an equally chatty Sony is in its place - with not network access.
- lelandfe 4y agoI looked into this last year and couldn’t find much. I found a few forum posts of people claiming their TV connected to a public WiFi but none of them seemed particularly reputable.
- lr1970 4y agoThere is Amazon SideWalk [0] that could potentially allow devices join mesh WiFi behind your back. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/ https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/
- freedomben 4y agoYep, make no mistake this is absolutely going to happen.
- nickthenerd 4y agoYes. I was looking for this comment before saying the same. This is the biggest selling point of Sidewalk to appliance/product companies. All the usage data, ad data, analytics, even remote control of devices can now happen even if your devices are completely disconnected from your home WiFi. If your neighbor has an Amazon Echo... now its basically connected to the internet. Even if you don't have neighbors, there could be a LoRa gateway a mile away on a cell tower, and its now connected.
- nmeagent 4y agoWell, we still have physical access at least. Let's see these weasel devices try to connect without a functioning antenna.
- rootusrootus 4y agoThe existence of Sidewalk is what prompted me to remove all Amazon devices from my home. I hope the range on that network is less than the distance to my neighbors house (but they're old folks, definitely don't have an Echo).
- iijj 4y agoI have a 3 month old Samsung TV with recent firmware. I am trying to use it as a dumb offline TV connected to an Apple TV (which is, of course, online). Short version is it does not automatically connect to networks without user input, but it prompts people all the time and inevitably ended up back on the network. It won't forget network passwords without a full reset. So if you connect to download firmware then disable the connection, it is one click away from someone re-enabling it. If there's an unsecured network available, you're only 2-3 clicks away from joining that. With other people in the house using it, the only way to reliably keep it off the internet is to connect it to a network, allow it to verify the connection works, then block it from making any more outgoing connections at the router level. It seems to be ok with this situation and doesn't complain too much. My original plan was to setup HDMI CEC and lock away the Samsung Remote to prevent people from getting into trouble. But when the TV is turned on vi HDMI CEC, half the time it wants to immediately run the OLED refresh cycle, and will automatically shut off and start doing that unless you actively prevent it from doing so with the remote. This is annoying because they have a setting to run the OLED refresh at night when not in use. It's almost like they sabotaged this use case on purpose to force people to interact with the Samsung UI. I should have bought a projector, assuming one can still get projectors that aren't similarly infected.
- freedomben 4y agoMy Samsung tries to be smart too and ends up wrecking everything. I have a Steam Deck and a Linux laptop that I want to connect via HDMI, but the TV tries to do some sort of detection thing but doesn't wait long enough and does some sort of power cycle on it. The net result is that the laptop will switch from HDMI on to HDMI off and back every few seconds, and the TV will never connect. It's aggravating because it's such a stupid simple bug, but I have zero control over the TV.
- exmicrosoldier 4y agoMy Sony smart tv was great for 3 years because I never connected it to the internet, but ever since I did, it hangs, takes 2 minutes to allow switching inputs, and in general just sucks. I will not make the mistake of ever connecting one of these to the internet again, and if I have to buy a Giant monitor for 2k, so be it. I'm 90% sure that the flash drive on the TV wore out and they want me to replace what is otherwise great working hardware for features I don't even want anymore.
- KerrAvon 4y agoYes, this. I bought an LG OLED C2 recently, plugged in an Apple TV, have not connected the TV itself to the internet. Works absolutely fine; bonus is that the apparently annoying voice control option is disabled. You don't need firmware updates unless there's a specific bug that you need fixed, and you can update by USB stick if you do need a fix.
- slig 4y agoBought one recently as well. I connected mine because it's easier for everyone in the house, but I used a trick to hide most of the crapware: change the country to "Other" [1] [1]: https://old.reddit.com/r/LGOLED/comments/vhbqru/remove_trending_bar_and_ads_on_the_home_no_root/idqtcx7/ https://old.reddit.com/r/LGOLED/comments/vhbqru/remove_trend...
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y agoYep. Extra bonus for LG since it uses webOS ( and that thing is great ). If you are concerned about TV connecting to something it shouldn't, you can setup a honeypot ( I think Unify still supports that ) and see what it tries to do. I never connected mine and didn't notice any attempts ( but it is an older OLED model ).
- benreic 4y agoI also got a C2 and briefly connected it via WiFi before I had the Apple TV. After hooking up the Apple TV I turned WiFi and thought I was all set, but it keeps turning WiFi on by itself and checking for updates which is really annoying. Might do a factory reset to clear out the WiFi password.
- philsnow 4y agoChange your wifi password, give the new password to your TV and make sure it connects, then change the wifi password (either to another new password or to the old one) and don't give the new new password to the TV. They generally don't remember and try previous passwords.
- jeremy_wiebe 4y ago
- kube-system 4y ago> Another bonus is my TV UI hasn’t changed despite changing and upgrading TV brands. One of the recent updates to my TV's software introduced bugs to a feature I use a lot. It is very infuriating, and it's one of the reasons I refuse to buy an expensive TV. Even if the hardware is good, I'm one software update away from a piece of garbage.
- MrMember 4y agoAn "update" to my TV made it so if it's on an input channel with no detected input for 10 seconds it will automatically switch back to the "smart" TV channel. Now if for some reason an input source isn't working correctly and I'm trying to figure out why I have to keep switching back to the correct input channel. Which of course lags for like ten seconds whenever it switches. I'm never buying another "smart" TV.
- freedomben 4y agoHeh, this happened to me with my Samsung TV. Never again.
- datadeft 4y agoIf your tv is not going to an open AP mode it is sufficient. Some smart devices had open APs or weak security and it was possible to exploit it.
- m463 4y agomy lg soundbar creates an access point to talk to the subwoofer, it is annoying. I wish I could just run an optical digital cable or something.
- colordrops 4y agoSynology or Kodi is going to be better than Apple TV for privacy, but usability takes a hit.
- dc3k 4y agoI did this with my A80J last year. During initial setup there is the option to disable all of the smart TV features. It's quite nice. Firmware updates can also be applied via USB stick, so it never needs to connect.
- lfkdev 4y agoI think a Pi4 with Kodi etc. is still way better for privacy.
- snapetom 4y agoAgree with this. If Apple ever really turns to the Dark Side, many here would be screwed.
- toastal 4y agoApple is already an advertising business
- gpanders 4y agoProbably true, but the Pi4 is not up to the task of transcoding 4k video.
- deadbunny 4y agoWhy would the Pi need to transcode video it's outputting to the TV?
- jjoonathan 4y agoMy TCL TV bootloops if it goes more than 3 months without downloading fresh ads. If you contact support, they walk you through connecting to the network.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y agoCan't connect to network. I don't have internet. Sorry. Returning TV back because it does not work.
- carlivar 4y agoThis reminds me of my friend in the 2000's that would say "I don't have email" when stores asked for his email address. Even at the time, quite unusual unless you were over 70 years old.
- jjoonathan 4y ago"Sorry, out of warranty."
- dwighttk 4y agohuh, my TCL is fine disconnected... The only irritating this as a flashing light around the power-button/ir-reciever that comes on when it can't connect to a network, but I've stopped noticing it.
- 4y ago
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y agoEthernet was added to HDMI https://thehometheaterdiy.com/hdmi-with-ethernet/ https://thehometheaterdiy.com/hdmi-with-ethernet/
- flangola7 4y agoBut why. HDMI is a video transmission format.
- syntheticnature 4y agoTo reduce the number of cables, in theory, though as noted it's not really implemented.
- tedunangst 4y agoIt's a multimedia interface.
- BizarroLand 4y agoExactly. Thats what the MI in HDMI stands for.
- detaro 4y agoAnd is implemented absolutely nowhere.
- 4y ago
- johnea 4y ago"Or, buy 4K a monitor..." It's 1/4 the area, minus all features, AND the same price!? 8-/ It's a great option, for dell shareholders...
- emmelaich 4y agoI attempted to do this with a new TCL TV. And continue using Chromecast dongle. But the damn thing freezes. So I'm using the inbuilt Chromecast for now!
- cinntaile 4y agoWhy do you want a not-smart tv? I thought the point was to not have tracking, but you were using a Chromecast dongle and I would expect Google of all companies to keep track of what you watch at least? Is it the security risks that probably show up after the tv software stops updating?
- freedomben 4y agoI would guess Google's privacy stuff is still an order of magnitude better than the TV manufacturers. Google actually gives you a decent amount of control over your data. There are definitely better privacy options than a Chromecast, but I don't think it's fair to put Google in the same category as Vizio/Samsung/et al.
- emmelaich 4y ago1. The old Chromecast dongle is much faster than this new TCL TV. 2. Google already knows everything I do and I trust them more than TCL. Playing a stream from the dongle just freezes after 30s. I'm pretty sure it's the TCL hdmi implementation, because the dongle has been utterly flawless previously.
- emmelaich 4y agoHere's another thing that shits me about the TCL. It asks me to sign in when setting up for the first time. You can't skip it. I thought this was related to Google TV, but apparently not. I later found a way to log out of the TCL, and my Google stuff still worked fine. False and intrusive behaviour from TCL. Also! your average joe would think this is for the Google account and would probably put in their Google password. I found an option to use a link number instead. How many Google passwords have been exposed to TCL?
- than3 4y agoYou may want to get yourself an SDR kit and check that for yourself. They typically broadcast on 43-33 cm band, (700-900mhz), and 2.4/5 ghz. You'd also be wrong about Apple's privacy protection.
- ipqk 4y agoYou can't just say someone is wrong without explaining why.
- than3 4y ago[flagged]
- all2 4y agoYou're being a dick. If you didn't realize that, that's what is going on here. To follow up on GGP(?), if I was going to look into the Apple privacy protection stuff, where would I start? Are there search terms, or specific sites or individuals you can point me to?
- than3 4y ago> You're being a dick. I'm being mature, and there is an important distinction though not mutually exclusive. If OP wanted to know more they could ask, and they didn't so I was right in my initial assessment regardless of how others feel. I would start with google keywords: "apple telemetry -site:apple.com" are a good place to start. From memory some of the important highlights were in 2016, there was an issue with the fast-fail network code in macOS and other devices where applications would not launch locally. Apple was forced to briefly disclose the cause of the outage, which amounted to a telemetry server update, a check-in at each application launch and other actions was required and could allow apple to decide what you can and can't run in realtime without your knowledge; there were several news articles about it at the time. There is the more recent articles about client-side scanning, which they rolled back but they largely by default upload everything to their cloud and do it there. This is good for catching predators, bad if one of those hashes they match against (which are not unique, one hash matches many potential files, an inherent property of modular arithmetic) cause a false positive, or if those hashes match material that is not illegal, but seek to censor. They don't disclose what they match specifically so you'll never know, nor will you be able to dispute or correct any mistakes. There have been several blog posts by System Administrators about the AppleTV and other Apple devices probing/mapping their internal networks over the years, and sending data up to the cloud. Its largely been encrypted so we don't know what it is they are sending but its a lot according to netflow and wireshark. If one were to find out, and publish what they found, it would serve as proof of violating the DMCA. So it is unlikely this will ever come to light from anyone domestically in the US or its allied countries. SDR opens a whole new avenue to approach auditing Apple devices that broadcast that data over the em spectrum, its also important since anyone with an antenna can pick that information up. Additionally, they don't disclose how long or what specific information they do collect about you, who they share it with, and even when you tell them to not collect info, they still do it. The higher the amount, and time, that you store information, the more likely it is going to be stolen.
- kneebonian 4y agoI just plugged a desktop into my big ole TV and then get a wireless mouse and keyboard. Run Linux on that thing and I control all of it, bonus points is that everyone knows how to use it when they come over to my house.
- xattt 4y agoIf this is the way that new TVs will be used, Ethernet-over-HDMI will see a comeback from the dead like nobody’s business!
- whalesalad 4y agoThis is the pro gamer move. I have a new LG C2 OLED and I love it. It has no idea that the internet exists. I use an Apple TV as well.
- threeseed 4y agoI have an LG C2 OLED and had it connected to the internet. It spams me with in-screen notifications at least once a week with either Privacy Policy updates or advertising new apps or TV shows. Great TV but definitely need to leave it unconnected.
- Zizizizz 4y agoIf you use nextdns or pihole you can block those. I do so the home screen has no top 2/3 of TV suggestions, just my installed apps at the bottom and the hi Def paintings from the gallery app showing above them.
- snerbles 4y agoEventually these devices will use DoH (DNS over HTTPS) to evade local ad and tracker blocking.
- foogazi 4y agoMy LG did that then I just blocked it on the wifi router
- retrac 4y ago> make it smart via an Apple TV I repurpose the old laptops that I seem to accumulate for this. Just about anything made in the last 10 years can handle at least 1080p video, and will have an HDMI output. I add a small wireless keyboard and use my regular desktop environment. But you can add a remote and use one of the open source media centre suites. I do wish more TVs had a monitor-like sleep mode and accepted the command for it over HDMI. And were actually low power when they sleep. That seems to be pretty spotty.
- MayeulC 4y agoGood idea for the laptop. You could use a smart plug (one that runs esphome, for instance, athom.tech sells pre-flashed ones) to wake the TV as well. And maybe the computer too.
- nofinator 4y agoWe do the same and it works well. We prefer a handheld keyboard/mouse to control it. We've tried several and the Lenovo N5902 [1] is our favorite by far. It's also useful to have the Unified Remote server [2] running on the media computer so you can control it from your phone when you need to. [1] https://www.newegg.com/p/09N-00A7-00001 https://www.newegg.com/p/09N-00A7-00001 [2] https://www.unifiedremote.com/ https://www.unifiedremote.com/
- NikolaNovak 4y agoThumbs up for the Lenovo keyboard/mouse combo. I preferred the trackball one, but the "trackpad"-y one works well too. It feels good in hand, it's nicely sized, fits easily in the drawer of nightstand table, and works well :). (not sure if it's discontinued btw; I struggled to find it in Canada last few years; but there are seemingly-identical unbranded alternatives usually available on amazon, e.g. https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B08H8LH7GP/ https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B08H8LH7GP/ )
- ipcress_file 4y agoI think they are discontinued. I needed another one for work a while back and ended up buying one of these (at $15, not the current price): https://www.amazon.ca/Computer-Accessories-Wireless-Keyboard-Touchpad/dp/B07WHCDH4B/ https://www.amazon.ca/Computer-Accessories-Wireless-Keyboard... It's actually relatively good, but not as good as the N5902.
- samgranieri 4y agothis 100%. When I had my TV installed I explicitly told the geeksquad guys who mounted it on the wall to not connect it to the internet because I'm driving it with an apple TV
- funkdified 4y agoThis is 100% the way. Did the same thing with my new Samsung. It's been a very clean experience.
- frereubu 4y agoI did the same with a projector and an old Mac Mini. Upgraded the internal hard drive to a small SSD and hung an 8TB spinning HD off the back with an attached Blu-Ray drive. Has the benefit that you can do things like rip / play Blu-Ray discs, choose to use Netflix / Amazon Prime / Apple TV / Eurosport / whatever you want. Only downside is that the Mac Mini is so old now (> 10 years) that it doesn't get OS updates. But I'm not sure I care about that too much as long as it works, because I have no personal data on it.
- stephenboyd 4y agoThat is also the advice given in the article. Unfortunately it follows that with "occasionally connect the TV to the internet for a minute to see if it needs any firmware updates" which is pointless if the TV is already working properly.
- Terretta 4y agoAnother way to "keep it off the Internet" without keeping it off the Internet is: Perflyst and Dandelion Sprout's Smart-TV Blocklist https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist/master/SmartTV-AGH.txt https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist/m...
- JasserInicide 4y agomake it smart via an Apple TV, which I personally believe to have the strongest privacy protection of any smart TV device. Except that as we saw with the CSAM debacle from a couple years ago, Apple will absolutely be scanning any device they have for anything they deem unsavory. I still can't believe people think Apple is a benign player in all of this
- macintux 4y agoOr perhaps you see what you want to see in that story. Apple and Google both scan images uploaded to their cloud for CSAM. Apple decided that they had the horsepower to do it on the device instead for only those images that would be uploaded to the cloud with the apparent intention of enabling end-to-end encryption for photos.
- artdigital 4y agoI use NextDNS/Adguard to cut out all the telemetry/tracking and have mine on a separate VLAN. I don't use the TV ui often, but this worked for the rare occasion
- kornhole 4y agoAny way you can disable the TV internet access is a good way to go. You can do it via your firewall or simply never give it the WIFI pwd. Kodi.TV on an ARM board is my preferred way to avoid Apple surveillance.
- ornornor 4y agoI’d argue libreelec/Kodi with servarr is the strongest privacy friendly solution as it leaks nothing at all to anyone at all and there is no algorithm to influence what you watch or don’t watch. It even can do YouTube in 1080p with sponsorblock (and no ads of course)