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Interesting that the article, subtitled "A refusal to confront colonial atrocities persists in the Netherlands," lead to you getting downvotes. Coincidence? I

Interesting that the article, subtitled "A refusal to confront colonial atrocities persists in the Netherlands," lead to you getting downvotes. Coincidence? I think not. The so-called "civilizing mission" continues to this day, with glorification of Dutch ideas and ideals, even though those ideals indeed led to mass atrocities. Such atrocities were often cited as "necessary," in order to impose "improvement" upon the victims society. This "civilizing mission" is often seen as worth it -- it includes many good ideas, after all. Even to this day, the respect for "civlizing" ideas remains, while the acknowledging of mass atrocities is often ignored, or covered up. Even worse, many of the people who committed atrocities are thought of as heroes.

jacquesm 4y ago
The same kind of sentiment goes for all of the colonial powers of old, it's a real problem. Some part of society finds it impossible to admit that they are where they are today because of crimes from the past. The Germans are the only country that I'm aware of that have successfully absorbed lessons from their history, but at the same time not all Germans and not all of history. This is a huge problem and is likely going to be the root cause of some of these lessons having to be learned all over again. Today there is human trafficking and slavery in pretty much every country on the globe, just more or less of it. And yet, nobody really lifts a finger to the point where we will be able to once and for all ban this out. Reparation payments, which would be one way to deal with all this (because obviously you can't undo history) are opposed because the people that live here today do not see themselves as complicit even if they are the beneficiaries. Hardly any Western European country has clean hands, and I highly doubt we will ever be able to move on from this in a way that satisfies everybody.
- WJW 4y ago
  It's much more complex than that of course. First of all it is practically impossible to determine what percentage of Dutch prosperity is due to slave trade, how much of it was due to income from selling natural gas and how much came from the Dutch people being clever merchants and light-bulb-builders and chip-machine-designers and whatnot. Not to mention that putting a definite price on the enslavement of your ancestors is likely to be pretty insulting. "Sorry we enslaved your great-grandfather, here is 5000 euros and let's call it even" is probably not going over well, even if that was the inflation-adjusted profit realized. Secondly of all the damage to local institutions we've done has often caused corruption to be normalized so much that reparations payments would merely enrich the ruling elite further. We can't just send over a few billion to soothe our conscience and hope everything will be OK. It's not really like everyone in the victim countries were innocent either, many tribes were all to happy to sell some of their rival to the westerners. Not everyone has documentation to prove anything either, precisely because their ancestors were slaves. Finally, how far are we going back? Do the Dutch have the right to claim reparations from German occupation? From Napoleonic occupation? From the descendants of the Romans? I don't dispute that there is a debt of honor to help everyone on earth towards a more prosperous state, but reparation payments have so many issues that they might create more problems than they solve.
  - boplicity 4y ago
    > Finally, how far are we going back? This is such an ignorant question. It completely erases the living people who are victims of colonialism right now. But whatever, apparently there were also atrocities hundreds of years ago that we can ignore too.
    - andsoitis 4y ago
      > It completely erases the living people In what way are they erased?
- throwaway6734 4y ago
  What country has clean hands? Who wouldn't owe reparations to someone else? What about cultures and societies that have already been destroyed?
Aeolun 4y ago
Why should I be bothered by atrocities committed four centuries ago? It’s absurd to think that any living Dutch person would feel responsible. I can feel sorry for Iraq, and Srebrenica. But not for something that didn’t even happen during my lifetime.
- Thiez 4y ago
  We don't have to go back that far, e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politionele_acties https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politionele_acties happened after the second world war.
  - Aeolun 4y ago
    True. My grandfather, whom was 16 at the time, might have felt some form of responsibiliy for that.
    - Thiez 4y ago
      Oh I don't feel responsible or guilty for stuff that happened before I existed either (it's not like I could have done anything differently to alter the outcome), I just disagreed with the 4 centuries. I suspect we would mostly agree on the subject.

jacquesm 4y ago

The same kind of sentiment goes for all of the colonial powers of old, it's a real problem. Some part of society finds it impossible to admit that they are where they are today because of crimes from the past. The Germans are the only country that I'm aware of that have successfully absorbed lessons from their history, but at the same time not all Germans and not all of history. This is a huge problem and is likely going to be the root cause of some of these lessons having to be learned all over again. Today there is human trafficking and slavery in pretty much every country on the globe, just more or less of it. And yet, nobody really lifts a finger to the point where we will be able to once and for all ban this out. Reparation payments, which would be one way to deal with all this (because obviously you can't undo history) are opposed because the people that live here today do not see themselves as complicit even if they are the beneficiaries. Hardly any Western European country has clean hands, and I highly doubt we will ever be able to move on from this in a way that satisfies everybody.

WJW 4y ago
It's much more complex than that of course. First of all it is practically impossible to determine what percentage of Dutch prosperity is due to slave trade, how much of it was due to income from selling natural gas and how much came from the Dutch people being clever merchants and light-bulb-builders and chip-machine-designers and whatnot. Not to mention that putting a definite price on the enslavement of your ancestors is likely to be pretty insulting. "Sorry we enslaved your great-grandfather, here is 5000 euros and let's call it even" is probably not going over well, even if that was the inflation-adjusted profit realized. Secondly of all the damage to local institutions we've done has often caused corruption to be normalized so much that reparations payments would merely enrich the ruling elite further. We can't just send over a few billion to soothe our conscience and hope everything will be OK. It's not really like everyone in the victim countries were innocent either, many tribes were all to happy to sell some of their rival to the westerners. Not everyone has documentation to prove anything either, precisely because their ancestors were slaves. Finally, how far are we going back? Do the Dutch have the right to claim reparations from German occupation? From Napoleonic occupation? From the descendants of the Romans? I don't dispute that there is a debt of honor to help everyone on earth towards a more prosperous state, but reparation payments have so many issues that they might create more problems than they solve.
- boplicity 4y ago
  > Finally, how far are we going back? This is such an ignorant question. It completely erases the living people who are victims of colonialism right now. But whatever, apparently there were also atrocities hundreds of years ago that we can ignore too.
  - andsoitis 4y ago
    > It completely erases the living people In what way are they erased?
throwaway6734 4y ago
What country has clean hands? Who wouldn't owe reparations to someone else? What about cultures and societies that have already been destroyed?

Aeolun 4y ago

Why should I be bothered by atrocities committed four centuries ago? It’s absurd to think that any living Dutch person would feel responsible. I can feel sorry for Iraq, and Srebrenica. But not for something that didn’t even happen during my lifetime.

Thiez 4y ago
We don't have to go back that far, e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politionele_acties https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politionele_acties happened after the second world war.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  True. My grandfather, whom was 16 at the time, might have felt some form of responsibiliy for that.
  - Thiez 4y ago
    Oh I don't feel responsible or guilty for stuff that happened before I existed either (it's not like I could have done anything differently to alter the outcome), I just disagreed with the 4 centuries. I suspect we would mostly agree on the subject.