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>Which nation has taken a very public and consistent stance against Russian military intervention in the Ukraine and committed billions of dollars in assistance

>Which nation has taken a very public and consistent stance against Russian military intervention in the Ukraine and committed billions of dollars in assistance without blinking? I'll give you a hint: its not China You say this as if the Ukraine invasion is the ethical bar, meanwhile the US has been invading countries for 50 years.

no_wizard 4y ago
Russia and China too, in fact. And Ukraine is still an ethical bar, a big one, as to when push comes to shove, China isn't a great partner. I don't think the Ukrainians are going to look fondly on how China has acted here. Remind me again why China supports Russian aggression in the Ukraine?
- endisneigh 4y ago
  > Remind me again why China supports Russian aggression in the Ukraine? China is bordering Russia. If you think that somehow doesn't change the type of relationship both parties are forced to have you don't understand geopolitics. The United States has extremely weak neighbors and huge oceans separating us from threats. Obviously our situation is very different.
  - augment001 4y ago
    > China is bordering Russia. If you think that somehow doesn't change the type of relationship both parties are forced to have you don't understand geopolitics. Can you explain what you are thinking? One implication is that China is supporting Russia because they are afraid of a Russian military actin, but is that what you mean?
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      Basically it means you should be friendly to your neighbors. To use a crude analogy - if you're in a apartment complex you would probably be nicer to your neighbor than if they lived in another building, and not literally next to you, right? Russia, China and India are the three neighbors living in a triplex. Meanwhile the United States is in a mansion surrounded by a moat a mile away.
      - augment001 4y ago
        Honestly, that’s not an explanation. If one of your neighbors was beating up and stealing from another of your neighbors, are your really saying you’d cosy up to them? By this logic you’d expect Finland to be Russia’s best friend. I am critical of the Chinese system of government, but I’d never think of them as cowards.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        endisneigh 4y ago
        Is China cozying up to Russia? By what metric, and for reference, using the same metric, how much is the United States, and other countries "cozying" up?
        augment001 4y ago
        I guess you haven’t been watching the news.
        endisneigh 4y ago
        Please inform me, then. By what metrics is China cozying up with Russia, and what are the same numbers for USA and co?
        augment001 4y ago
        It’s not my job to inform you. If you don’t think China is supporting Russia’s position then you need to do some reading. Also, I guess you can’t explain why Finland isn’t Russia’s best friend despite bordering Russia.
        endisneigh 4y ago
        Don't make claims you can't back up, lol.
  - no_wizard 4y ago
    Yet those "weak" neighbors feel just fine criticizing the US and entering disputes[0][1], to which we don't respond by just invading them, clearly. China can defend itself just fine, is the general assertion they make, so what are they worried about exactly? If Finland can speak out against Russia, why can't China? [0]: https://apnews.com/article/science-technology-business-mexico-canada-3c4d474c2e3dd01b1c93602ff0d014c9 https://apnews.com/article/science-technology-business-mexic... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93United_States_softwood_lumber_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93United_States_s...
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/zxxx_662805/202302/t20230224_11030713.html https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/zxxx_662805/202302/t2023022...
      - no_wizard 4y ago
        This bypasses my central point, which is they're clearly continuing to support Russia and not act in any way to diminish their ability to stop being an aggressor, despite this press release, the reality is clear: they don't care about the Ukraine or applying pressure to Russia to resolve this
- jpgvm 4y ago
  China doesn't support aggression in Ukraine and have made that much clear. They also don't support poking a fucking insane leader of a nation with nukes that shares a massive land border with them and which they are heavily reliant on for natural resources. Those positions aren't at odds with each other. Wanting peace but also not wanting to sour relationship with perhaps your most important neighbour aren't unreasonable things to want at the same time. China was a great partner to Ukraine and invested a shit ton of money there, they are probably very upset that Russia has decided to go in there and fuck up the infrastructure they built. I just don't understand what people expect from China here? Turn around and say, "Hey Russia, I know you provide like 1/3rd of our energy and commodities imports but I would like you to go fuck yourself until you abandon your invasion of a small country that we like but isn't critical to our economy. kthxbye". Yeah. That is entirely unrealistic and everyone should know that. The US provides weapons to Ukraine because it's convenient. They send them surplus old crap and it hurts the Russians. Good for Ukraine, good for the US and costs them essentially nothing in the grand scheme of things, in fact it's probably the cheapest $/russian_damage they can currently purchase. They get to fight a war (their favourite pasttime) with none of the negative domestic consequences. Win win! On the other hand there is nothing China can do here on either side that isn't negative expected value for them. Them backing Russia would fuck them over with Europe which is actually a really good trading partner. Most people agree it's all negatives here so I don't think I need to elaborate. Them going against Russia would just obliterate the relationship they have spent decades fixing and probably buy them absolutely nothing with anyone else. The US isn't going to turn around and be like "Hey! China doesn't like Russia anymore, now they are our best friend!". That shit ain't happening. The US will continue to contain and suppress China because that is their prerogative and has nothing to do with their alliance with Russia. US can't allow a world were there is a power that rivals theirs, it violates every current US doctrine of "world order". TLDR: China doesn't have anything to gain by directly rebuffing Russia and plenty to gain by staying relatively neutral in the matter.
  - augment001 4y ago
    > China doesn't support aggression in Ukraine and have made that much clear. Would you mind explaining where they have made it clear? All I’ve seen are statements blaming it on the US for being open to new NATO members.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  > Remind me again why China supports Russian aggression in the Ukraine? Prolonging the war harms Russia (so long as Russia doesn't win). It increases tensions between NATO and OPEC. It's a drag on economic productivity for most of the countries engaging. If resulting shortages hurt the developing world, that's another anti-NATO talking point for China in its relations with those states, and weakened economies or state-stability might open up new opportunities for China. Meanwhile, China gets cheap fuel and can generally do as they like with Russian relations, since, what're the Russians gonna do, push them away? Meanwhile, what would they gain from flipping hard against Russia? China's whole deal, to paint with a broad brush, is avoiding entanglements and prodding things the way that suits them... from the sidelines. Their foreign policy doesn't really follow some kind of moral narrative like we like to (try to) apply to ours in the West, to the point that the narrative they do have is about how they won't screw with foreign countries for reasons of morals or ideology—though neither their narrative nor ours fully fits the facts of their or our behavior. We play our cards, they play theirs. Our favored move right now is to help Russia wreck its military and economy while embarrassing itself. China's favored move is swooping into the resulting trade vacuum to their own benefit, and keeping this mess going as long as possible, because it's hurting everyone involved while helping them and improving their overall diplomatic/strategic position.

no_wizard 4y ago

Russia and China too, in fact. And Ukraine is still an ethical bar, a big one, as to when push comes to shove, China isn't a great partner. I don't think the Ukrainians are going to look fondly on how China has acted here. Remind me again why China supports Russian aggression in the Ukraine?

endisneigh 4y ago
> Remind me again why China supports Russian aggression in the Ukraine? China is bordering Russia. If you think that somehow doesn't change the type of relationship both parties are forced to have you don't understand geopolitics. The United States has extremely weak neighbors and huge oceans separating us from threats. Obviously our situation is very different.
- augment001 4y ago
  > China is bordering Russia. If you think that somehow doesn't change the type of relationship both parties are forced to have you don't understand geopolitics. Can you explain what you are thinking? One implication is that China is supporting Russia because they are afraid of a Russian military actin, but is that what you mean?
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    Basically it means you should be friendly to your neighbors. To use a crude analogy - if you're in a apartment complex you would probably be nicer to your neighbor than if they lived in another building, and not literally next to you, right? Russia, China and India are the three neighbors living in a triplex. Meanwhile the United States is in a mansion surrounded by a moat a mile away.
    - augment001 4y ago
      Honestly, that’s not an explanation. If one of your neighbors was beating up and stealing from another of your neighbors, are your really saying you’d cosy up to them? By this logic you’d expect Finland to be Russia’s best friend. I am critical of the Chinese system of government, but I’d never think of them as cowards.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - endisneigh 4y ago
        Is China cozying up to Russia? By what metric, and for reference, using the same metric, how much is the United States, and other countries "cozying" up?
        augment001 4y ago
        I guess you haven’t been watching the news.
        endisneigh 4y ago
        Please inform me, then. By what metrics is China cozying up with Russia, and what are the same numbers for USA and co?
        augment001 4y ago
        It’s not my job to inform you. If you don’t think China is supporting Russia’s position then you need to do some reading. Also, I guess you can’t explain why Finland isn’t Russia’s best friend despite bordering Russia.
        endisneigh 4y ago
        Don't make claims you can't back up, lol.
- no_wizard 4y ago
  Yet those "weak" neighbors feel just fine criticizing the US and entering disputes[0][1], to which we don't respond by just invading them, clearly. China can defend itself just fine, is the general assertion they make, so what are they worried about exactly? If Finland can speak out against Russia, why can't China? [0]: https://apnews.com/article/science-technology-business-mexico-canada-3c4d474c2e3dd01b1c93602ff0d014c9 https://apnews.com/article/science-technology-business-mexic... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93United_States_softwood_lumber_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93United_States_s...
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/zxxx_662805/202302/t20230224_11030713.html https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/zxxx_662805/202302/t2023022...
    - no_wizard 4y ago
      This bypasses my central point, which is they're clearly continuing to support Russia and not act in any way to diminish their ability to stop being an aggressor, despite this press release, the reality is clear: they don't care about the Ukraine or applying pressure to Russia to resolve this
jpgvm 4y ago
China doesn't support aggression in Ukraine and have made that much clear. They also don't support poking a fucking insane leader of a nation with nukes that shares a massive land border with them and which they are heavily reliant on for natural resources. Those positions aren't at odds with each other. Wanting peace but also not wanting to sour relationship with perhaps your most important neighbour aren't unreasonable things to want at the same time. China was a great partner to Ukraine and invested a shit ton of money there, they are probably very upset that Russia has decided to go in there and fuck up the infrastructure they built. I just don't understand what people expect from China here? Turn around and say, "Hey Russia, I know you provide like 1/3rd of our energy and commodities imports but I would like you to go fuck yourself until you abandon your invasion of a small country that we like but isn't critical to our economy. kthxbye". Yeah. That is entirely unrealistic and everyone should know that. The US provides weapons to Ukraine because it's convenient. They send them surplus old crap and it hurts the Russians. Good for Ukraine, good for the US and costs them essentially nothing in the grand scheme of things, in fact it's probably the cheapest $/russian_damage they can currently purchase. They get to fight a war (their favourite pasttime) with none of the negative domestic consequences. Win win! On the other hand there is nothing China can do here on either side that isn't negative expected value for them. Them backing Russia would fuck them over with Europe which is actually a really good trading partner. Most people agree it's all negatives here so I don't think I need to elaborate. Them going against Russia would just obliterate the relationship they have spent decades fixing and probably buy them absolutely nothing with anyone else. The US isn't going to turn around and be like "Hey! China doesn't like Russia anymore, now they are our best friend!". That shit ain't happening. The US will continue to contain and suppress China because that is their prerogative and has nothing to do with their alliance with Russia. US can't allow a world were there is a power that rivals theirs, it violates every current US doctrine of "world order". TLDR: China doesn't have anything to gain by directly rebuffing Russia and plenty to gain by staying relatively neutral in the matter.
- augment001 4y ago
  > China doesn't support aggression in Ukraine and have made that much clear. Would you mind explaining where they have made it clear? All I’ve seen are statements blaming it on the US for being open to new NATO members.
yamtaddle 4y ago
> Remind me again why China supports Russian aggression in the Ukraine? Prolonging the war harms Russia (so long as Russia doesn't win). It increases tensions between NATO and OPEC. It's a drag on economic productivity for most of the countries engaging. If resulting shortages hurt the developing world, that's another anti-NATO talking point for China in its relations with those states, and weakened economies or state-stability might open up new opportunities for China. Meanwhile, China gets cheap fuel and can generally do as they like with Russian relations, since, what're the Russians gonna do, push them away? Meanwhile, what would they gain from flipping hard against Russia? China's whole deal, to paint with a broad brush, is avoiding entanglements and prodding things the way that suits them... from the sidelines. Their foreign policy doesn't really follow some kind of moral narrative like we like to (try to) apply to ours in the West, to the point that the narrative they do have is about how they won't screw with foreign countries for reasons of morals or ideology—though neither their narrative nor ours fully fits the facts of their or our behavior. We play our cards, they play theirs. Our favored move right now is to help Russia wreck its military and economy while embarrassing itself. China's favored move is swooping into the resulting trade vacuum to their own benefit, and keeping this mess going as long as possible, because it's hurting everyone involved while helping them and improving their overall diplomatic/strategic position.