4 ms·

Wait is this true? Doesn’t it also use SQLAlchemy at least? Which then likely has its own dependencies? I’d be really surprised if Django had no dependencies at

Wait is this true? Doesn’t it also use SQLAlchemy at least? Which then likely has its own dependencies? I’d be really surprised if Django had no dependencies at all.

rochak 3y ago
I don’t think Django uses SQLAlchemy. It has its own ORM which is damn good, but you can also use SWLAlchemy instead of that if you want.
fernandotakai 3y ago
django 4.2 has two dependencies: asgiref and sqlparse. other than that, none. django does not use sqlalchemy as its ORM, it has its own system (which i prefer!).
- KyeRussell 3y ago
  Amen. Until recently, I was exclusively working with Django for 5+ years. I definitely fell into the trap of making the ORM for granted. Had a brief foray into the JS world and despite plenty of slick-looking projects with fancy pants websites, nothing remotely compares.
  - rajamaka 3y ago
    What JS based ORMs did you use that you weren't a fan of?
    - AeroNotix 3y ago
      All of them are bad in their own ways. They all fall down in key features, or the non-standard SQL features (hooks, after-save, automatic transactions, etc) all have edge-cases and surprising behaviour. I have tried a lot and the least worst is Zapatos (and it's not really an ORM) because it at least tries to not paper over SQL and instead just creates a type-safe API for using SQL.
    - ackfoobar 3y ago
      Slightly related, I'm not used to using ORMs. Spoiled by jooq from the JVM world, writing SQL with the query builder in TypeORM was a terrible experience.
    - winrid 3y ago
      The thing is - even if someone creates an amazing ORM for Node, I doubt I'd use it. I am tired and done with async everything. No more NodeJS for business logic. Now, if someone could create a Django-like ORM for Java or Rust, then we're talking. Hibernate and Diesel are nowhere near Django's ORM in terms of productivity and "it just works" factor. Go's GORM looks pretty good but haven't tried it. jooq does not look as easy to use or setup, and the workflow is entirely different.
  - kdazzle 3y ago
    Same here, I came into a project that had been started months before and found that they were spending weeks reimplementing stuff that comes out of the box in Django. But not as well.
black3r 3y ago
Django doesn't use SQLALchemy, they have their own ORM system. And it's true that Django used to have 0 real dependencies (now it has 2), but even now many of its "optional builtins" do require some additional external packages, and some of them are really useful. For example you need an external package to use builtin postgresql, mysql or oracledb support. You need tblib to run tests in parallel using the built-in test runner. You need external packages to use argon2 or bcrypt as password hashers in the builtin auth system, and I'm sure there are others, since Django is very much batteries included, but modular. The modularity also means you can also use any 3rd party database, use pytest to run tests, make your password hashing on your own, ... so I can understand that these are not listed as dependencies on pypi, but I don't really like that I have to list packages I don't directly import in my code as direct dependencies...
simonw 3y ago
Django had zero external dependencies for a long time, which was a factor of its history. The first release of Django was in 2005. Back then, the Python Package Index didn't exist yet. Installing Python dependencies was really hard - you pretty much had to grab a copy of the code for each one and put it on your "sys.path" somehow. So Django avoided the issue entirely by bundling everything you needed to build a web application in a single package. That's why Django has "django.contrib" - in a time before pip dependencies, it was a way to separate out things like GeoDjango which weren't exactly part of the "core" framework but could be distributed along with it.

Wait is this true? Doesn’t it also use SQLAlchemy at least? Which then likely has its own dependencies? I’d be really surprised if Django had no dependencies at all.

rochak 3y ago

I don’t think Django uses SQLAlchemy. It has its own ORM which is damn good, but you can also use SWLAlchemy instead of that if you want.

fernandotakai 3y ago

django 4.2 has two dependencies: asgiref and sqlparse. other than that, none. django does not use sqlalchemy as its ORM, it has its own system (which i prefer!).

KyeRussell 3y ago
Amen. Until recently, I was exclusively working with Django for 5+ years. I definitely fell into the trap of making the ORM for granted. Had a brief foray into the JS world and despite plenty of slick-looking projects with fancy pants websites, nothing remotely compares.
- rajamaka 3y ago
  What JS based ORMs did you use that you weren't a fan of?
  - AeroNotix 3y ago
    All of them are bad in their own ways. They all fall down in key features, or the non-standard SQL features (hooks, after-save, automatic transactions, etc) all have edge-cases and surprising behaviour. I have tried a lot and the least worst is Zapatos (and it's not really an ORM) because it at least tries to not paper over SQL and instead just creates a type-safe API for using SQL.
  - ackfoobar 3y ago
    Slightly related, I'm not used to using ORMs. Spoiled by jooq from the JVM world, writing SQL with the query builder in TypeORM was a terrible experience.
  - winrid 3y ago
    The thing is - even if someone creates an amazing ORM for Node, I doubt I'd use it. I am tired and done with async everything. No more NodeJS for business logic. Now, if someone could create a Django-like ORM for Java or Rust, then we're talking. Hibernate and Diesel are nowhere near Django's ORM in terms of productivity and "it just works" factor. Go's GORM looks pretty good but haven't tried it. jooq does not look as easy to use or setup, and the workflow is entirely different.
- kdazzle 3y ago
  Same here, I came into a project that had been started months before and found that they were spending weeks reimplementing stuff that comes out of the box in Django. But not as well.

black3r 3y ago

Django doesn't use SQLALchemy, they have their own ORM system. And it's true that Django used to have 0 real dependencies (now it has 2), but even now many of its "optional builtins" do require some additional external packages, and some of them are really useful. For example you need an external package to use builtin postgresql, mysql or oracledb support. You need tblib to run tests in parallel using the built-in test runner. You need external packages to use argon2 or bcrypt as password hashers in the builtin auth system, and I'm sure there are others, since Django is very much batteries included, but modular. The modularity also means you can also use any 3rd party database, use pytest to run tests, make your password hashing on your own, ... so I can understand that these are not listed as dependencies on pypi, but I don't really like that I have to list packages I don't directly import in my code as direct dependencies...

simonw 3y ago

Django had zero external dependencies for a long time, which was a factor of its history. The first release of Django was in 2005. Back then, the Python Package Index didn't exist yet. Installing Python dependencies was really hard - you pretty much had to grab a copy of the code for each one and put it on your "sys.path" somehow. So Django avoided the issue entirely by bundling everything you needed to build a web application in a single package. That's why Django has "django.contrib" - in a time before pip dependencies, it was a way to separate out things like GeoDjango which weren't exactly part of the "core" framework but could be distributed along with it.