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A lot of people are saying it's because of the mild winter, but here e.g. Germany and natural gas use by consumers (used for heating): down even temperature adj

• WeylandYutani 4y ago
  When energy prices triple efficiency increases. America is just a vast, sparsely populated country with minimal environmental protection laws so they can afford not to care.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • plextoria 4y ago
    America also has its own oil and natural gas. The EU not so much
    • kiviuq 4y ago
      The moment China, Saudi-Arabia and Iran announced the deal, Biden allowed the Willow drilling project. Wonder why xD
    • RandomLensman 4y ago
      EU has a lot of shale gas, but politically pretty much impossible to use.
    • usrnm 4y ago
      The EU has its own oil and gas as well, they just don't want to deal with them anymore. See Groningen, for example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groningen_gas_field https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groningen_gas_field
• florbnit 4y ago
  > The world has a lot of potential to be more efficient. This winter wasn’t “efficient” it was cold as hell because we all turned the heating as low as it could go without causing building damage[1] because the price of natural gas more than 10x’ed. It’s not an example of a sustainable reduction in consumption. [1] though a lot of people didn’t think things through and set the temperature too low or even turned off the gas and now have mold and other problems in their basements.
  • locallost 4y ago
    I was probably not clear enough, my point was that even in normal times, energy use im some countries can be almost double per capita than other similar countries. But even in the more energy efficient countries there's room for improvement - better insulation, more efficient appliances on the individual level, and better urban planning etc. on the society level.
  • squokko 4y ago
    Sure it's sustainable. Wear a jacket indoors. Won't kill you.
    • fredrikholm 4y ago
      This is how (a lot of) students live in Glasgow; jackets indoors, heating when you have guests.
      • johnchristopher 4y ago
        I even lower heating when I have guests. Most of the time human bodies emit heat enough (N=1, for my lodging).
        • nottorp 4y ago
          Yeah, when i have 4+ people in my living room i have to lower down the heating or open a window.
    • 4y ago
• anticodon 4y ago
  Skimmed through the article. Not a word about many factories closed in EU this winter, or moving to other countries (e.g. USA where energy is cheaper). Of course, according to propaganda, it's all "efficiency" and "saving" and definitely not US effectively killing EU industry.
  • Eisenstein 4y ago
    Do you have any data on this?
    • anticodon 4y ago
      [flagged]
      • rob74 4y ago
        The article you linked is also an example of "spinning" things to make them sound worse than they are: "They are now prompting BASF to lay off thousands of workers and shut down sections of its flagship facility in Ludwigshafen, Germany" - the "thousands of workers" (actually 2600, just enough to qualify as "thousands") are worldwide, in Ludwigshafen itself it's 700 over two years (according to https://www.chemietechnik.de/service-standorte/basf-schliesst-neun-anlagen-und-baut-700-stellen-in-ludwigshafen-ab-486.html https://www.chemietechnik.de/service-standorte/basf-schliess... - actually the number of 700 is also mentioned at the very end of the c&en article).
      • MoSattler 4y ago
        One "example" is not data.
      • starfallg 4y ago
        BASF is moving some production to China, but even that seems to be a bad decision now with the breakdown of trust with the authoritarian countries pushing for a multi-polar world. Germany is in bed with China in the same way it was in bed with Russia, and you can see how that went.
      • 4y ago
• jacquesm 4y ago
  And it wasn't a particularly mild winter. Not the worst, but certainly nowhere near the best.
  • luckylion 4y ago
    At least for Germany it was very mild. You could've worn a T-Shirt on New Year's Eve. Its average temperatures may not stand out among the last 5 winters because they were all particularly mild, but compared to the past 50 years, it absolutely was standing out.
    • jacquesm 4y ago
      Europe is large enough that the weather isn't uniform.
      • luckylion 4y ago
        Surprisingly so (but then again, mostly not), but that comment specifically mentioned Germany. And for Europe as a whole: Winter temperatures in 2022 were around 1°C above average, ranking amongst the ten warmest winters. [1] As far as I understand, that's the top 10 out of the past 170 years. [1] https://climate.copernicus.eu/copernicus-2022-was-year-climate-extremes-record-high-temperatures-and-rising-concentrations https://climate.copernicus.eu/copernicus-2022-was-year-clima...
  • RHSman2 4y ago
    Was very, very mild.
• seydor 4y ago
  Wouldn't it be more efficient to just move south
• bayindirh 4y ago
  Well, if we call "setting thermostats to 18 degrees Celsius in the middle of the Winter" being efficient, then yes. However, it was neither fun, nor comfortable to live in cold.
  • doublesocket 4y ago
    Is that everyone's experience though? We set ours to 18 and only occasionally turned it up to 19 and it was fine all winter.
    • Jochim 4y ago
      18 can feel quite cold if you're already cold, it's drafty, or the warmth isn't distributed fairly evenly.
    • bayindirh 4y ago
      Everybody's body is different. I'm normally very resistant to cold, esp, if I'm moving, yet I cool down when I don't move, and esp. at nights (when body slows down even more), so I need a warmer environment (~20 degrees C) to live comfortably at nights. Today I'm walking around in a T-Shirt when everyone has some kind of thin coats on, but when I sit and idle for an hour, or get hungry, I cool down considerably. My wife is extremely resistant to heat, but this disadvantages her in normal and cold weather severely. Her baseline is 22-23 degrees C to live comfortably, with long sleeved warm clothes. Also, temperature doesn't always indicate cold's penetration power. If the air is dry, -18 degrees C is survivable with a mid-thickness polar coat. If it's humid, try to survive 2-3 degrees C with a down / wind-resistant coat. It won't be easy.
      • Swinx43 4y ago
        Your observations are spot on. People are different and thus handle temperatures differently. The bit about humidity is absolutely 100% in line with my experience. I could handle -11 degrees C in Germany with clothing that would leave me freezing in the UK at -2 degrees C. The same goes for handling heat and humidity. I grew up with average temps of 35 degrees C in a dry climate. It was not a problem at all. 28 degrees in high humidity I find unbearable.
• fulafel 4y ago
  The basic equation is ROI on insulation and other energy efficiency investment, which is directly dependent on energy prices. We know very well how to implement really good insulation (eg passive houses in -20C climates), heat recovery for ventilation, and non fossil heating sources. But fossil energy is too cheap and regulated incentives lacking to improve building energy efficiency. Let's hope the EU policy in the works[1] will fix some of this and not get gutted by the anti-green populist factions. [1] https://www.eceee.org/all-news/news/news-2021/new-report-epbd-revision-a-make-or-break-opportunity/ https://www.eceee.org/all-news/news/news-2021/new-report-epb...
• freehorse 4y ago
  > The world has a lot of potential to be more efficient. Well nobody really measured how capping the temperature at workplaces at 18.C affects productivity, nor long term effects in health, so the "more efficient" part has a lot of different caveats.
• realworldperson 4y ago
  [dead]
• Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  > down even temperature adjusted. I mean with gas and electricity prices going up 200-500% for consumers, of course you'd see people trying to save as much as they can.
• mcv 4y ago
  It can be done. But this wasn't done for efficiency or to fight climate change, but out of solidarity with Ukraine, and Europe had to reduce its dependency on Russian gas. Still, if we can do it for that, can't we do it for climate change too? It's a more abstract problem though; not as concrete, immediate and urgent as a war. And frankly, I wouldn't mind being able to put my temperature back to 20 next winter. 19 doesn't sound like a big change, but it's still a bit chilly.
  • gnull 4y ago
    Calling it solidarity with Ukraine is an understatement. People reduced the consumption because they couldn't afford it anymore — for big economical and diplomatic reasons.
    • netrus 4y ago
      I know plenty of people who reduced their gas consumption way before their contracts got updated. No financial stimulus, pure feeling of civic duty and solidarity - with Ukraine, with those who already had adjusted contracts, and out of fear for what would happen in the coming winter.
  • mike_hock 4y ago
    This would be a use case that nuclear is made for since heating during the winter is a constant load that doesn't change at a moment's notice.
  • moffkalast 4y ago
    Desire for efficiency is not exactly a good emotional drive for change (except maybe for Germans), now spite on the other hand...
    • locallost 4y ago
      Desire to develop agriculture was not good emotional drive for nomads that hunted and gathered until there was nothing left, but it was an important civilisational step. Also I've lived in Germany for over a decade now, and I've concluded it's the least efficient country one can imagine. But it's rational to save and not waste energy just as it is to nurture and not destroy your surrounding.
• muyuu 4y ago
  if by efficient you mean living in cold and hardship, blanketing up at home to sleep away the cold nights, then yes
  • fhd2 4y ago
    I live in Germany, and have been more mindful of how high I turn the heaters and how much electricity and hot water I use. Honestly, all I did was stop wasting it mindlessly. Certainly wouldn't call it living in cold and hardship. The same is true for the people I know (though I admit I might live in a bubble).
    • muyuu 4y ago
      There certainly was cold and hardship, definitely in parts of Central Europe and the UK. You may not have suffered, but many people have.
• noughtme 4y ago
  German consumer gas consumption was down 13%, meanwhile, coal consumption was up 13%. https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2022/12/PE22_518_433.html https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2022/12/PE22_518_433.html
  • amai 4y ago
    That is not what you’re source says. Your source is only talking about gas consumption for production of electricity. But most consumers will use gas for heating, which isn‘t mentioned in that article at all. But ignoring that, the chart at the end shows that coal, gas and solar increased their share in electricity production, whereas it was nuclear which showed the biggest decrease.
• speleding 4y ago
  The large decrease in the Netherlands is primarily explained by the large number of greenhouse farmers halting operations or switching to a crop that doesn't need heating
• flakeoil 4y ago
  Exactly this. Per capita 42.1MWh for Germany vs 76.6MWh for USA in 2021 (before the war and any special energy savings) [1]. The living standard is comparable and the output per GDP is 0.98kWh for Germany vs 1.48kWh for the USA (in 2018) [2]. So it should be easy for the USA to reduce by 1/3 their energy consumption without affecting productivity and without even switching to other energy sources. There is a lot of potential in energy efficiency also in Germany and other countries of course. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/germany?country=USA~DEU#per-capita-what-is-the-average-energy-consumption-per-person https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/germany?country=US... [2] https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/germany?country=USA~DEU#energy-intensity-how-much-energy-does-it-use-per-unit-of-gdp https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/germany?country=US...
  • mercutio2 4y ago
    No credible aggregate analysis says that living standards are “comparable” in the US and Germany. If you assume your conclusion, it’s easy to make convincing sounding arguments. There are many ways that Germany is more pleasant than the US, and if you care a lot about those things you can construct arguments for why being in Germany is preferable. But ability to consume goods and services is not one of those arguments. The US is MUCH richer than Germany.
• sebzim4500 4y ago
  >Look no further than energy consumption per capita in the US. It's drastically higher than in other developed countries. How much of this is due to the extreme temperatures that the US population experience that are completely unheard of in Europe?
  • JBorrow 4y ago
    That’s just not true, most of Eastern Europe sees extreme temperature variation similar to New England.
    • flavius29663 4y ago
      But most of the US lives MUCH further south than Europe, requiring a lot of AC, and also heating in the winter, because the temperature swings are so wild. Europe is more temperate, you don't get as often +25C and then freezing weather in 2 days.
  • engineeringwoke 4y ago
    Citation?
• chakintosh 4y ago
  As a non-American,I can't understand for the life of me why a lot of American homes are equipped with home-wide underfloor heating systems and AC's running on freaking diesel just to be able to walk around home with shorts and t-shirts. And I too live in an area where it gets frigid in winter but it's nothing a wool sweater and a blanket can't fix.
  • ajaynv31 4y ago
    You can’t understand why a lot of American homes are equipped with home wide underfloor heating systems cos most homes are not equipped that way - where is this idea even coming from ? Source : lived in america for a decade and make decent money and my million dollar home has absolutely big standard heating and cooling. Underfloor heating is a luxury and I don’t think I’ve ever seen it in a home in all my time here.
  • dragonwriter 4y ago
    > As a non-American,I can't understand for the life of me why a lot of American homes are equipped with home-wide underfloor heating systems and AC's running on freaking diesel just to be able to walk around home with shorts and t-shirts. As an American, I can’t understand for the life of me where anyone would get the idea that either of these is a common thing. I mean, an AC running on diesel isn't completely unheard of, in that a house might have both AC and a diesel backup generator, but underfloor heating or anything in the home powered primarily by diesel are not even remotely common.
    • nkurz 4y ago
      Doesn't explain the AC, which I agree is really rare, but in some parts of the US (North East) fuel oil is commonly used for winter heating. Depending on grade, fuel oil is sometimes synonymous with diesel, with the two are being served from the same tank. Map here: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=3690 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=3690 (with "fuel oil" being called "heating oil").
• flavius29663 4y ago
  > Look no further than energy consumption per capita in the US. It's drastically higher than in other developed countries. There are many reasons for this: - they are richer, so they can afford bigger houses and larger cars. You think Europeans wouldn't like to live in a larger house, or drive a larger car? This is not a choice, or efficiency improvements, this is just Europeans not being able to afford more. - they have more land, so they can afford to live in quiet suburbia, surrounded by trees and lawns rather than noisy, polluted neighborhoods. - they produce their own energy. Oil import-export is close to net zero and they export gas. Producing oil and gas is energy intensive. Europe on the other hand imports energy, and don't have to account for those emissions. - they live further south, and need constant AC in the summer. There are inefficiencies in the US, for example houses are poorly insulated; but these inefficiencies are a little overblown, when compared to Europe. If Europeans would live at the same standards of living like the Americans, and produce their own energy, they would be close in energy consumption.
• ksec 4y ago
  I wonder if the world, or countries should mandate Energy Efficiency, or insulation on all new housing. And if they could have some side benefits of housing price where older housing with no insulation would be marketed at a lower price.