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I appreciate the "Why You Shouldn't Use Julia for Administrative Scripts" section[0] which asked exactly the questions I would have asked. The choice of (non-B

I appreciate the "Why You Shouldn't Use Julia for Administrative Scripts" section[0] which asked exactly the questions I would have asked. The choice of (non-Bash) language to write command line utilities is in a bit of odd spot right now. Python is basically almost everywhere installed but the dependency on runtime + venv oddities bring their own set of problems. Java has similar runtime needs though things might improve with initiatives regarding native binary compilation (though including the runtime may not produce exactly lightweight executables) - also, not super popular among the younger crowd. Perl used to be a hot favorite in this space but I don't think lot of people are writing new stuff in Perl even though it is still present by default almost everywhere. Go is almost perfect here except I don't want to deal with 3x the boilerplate. Personally I think Rust isn't a bad choice (libraries like clap hugely reduce the boilerplate) but the learning curve makes it a harder sell (even though for basic utilities, I don't think there would be too much wrestling with the borrow checker). Another choice that comes to mind is Nim; I think it is very well positioned except a lot of people don't know even about it so its a hard sell + even among those who know, everyone is looking at everyone else to take the initiative to adopt it in a corporate environment at a non-trivial scale. [0]: https://github.com/ninjaaron/administrative-scripting-with-julia#id4 https://github.com/ninjaaron/administrative-scripting-with-j...

koito17 4y ago
I wish there was something elaborated for scripts that run on Node. I've been using nbb[1] for scripting, and although it all runs through Node.js, it is fast to start up and quick to prototype/debug scripts. The best part is in CI I can simply `npx nbb path/to/script.cljs`. Things get clunky if I want to use anything outside of the Node stdlib (or the few things that come out of the box, like tools.cli for command-line argument parsing) though, since then you need the dreaded node_modules folder around. [1] https://github.com/babashka/nbb https://github.com/babashka/nbb
- _0w8t 4y ago
  Why is nbb or anything else necessary to run node scripts? Compared with a Python Node runtime does not come with all batteries included, but is rich enough to replace shell scripts. It even supports things like file system change notifiers, while Python requires external dependencies for that. So I run the scripts directly with node.
macrolocal 4y ago
Haskell is useful to stop other people from breaking your scripts.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
0cf8612b2e1e 4y ago
> Python is basically almost everywhere installed but the dependency on runtime + venv oddities bring their own set of problems Not that it changes your core message, but if you need scripting dependencies, you should use pipx[0]. Pipx will manage isolated virtual environments for each utility. ‘pipx install black’ will create a dedicated venv just to hold black. Invoking ‘pipx upgrade-all’ will scan all venvs for out of date utilities. [0] https://pypa.github.io/pipx/ https://pypa.github.io/pipx/
- noisy_boy 4y ago
  True but then the script needs to install its dependencies dynamically from a given host and hosts may have different configurations/network restrictions etc. Also, that'll result in scripts having to include their install related boilerplate which is besides the core functionality OR we need a separate script/stage that sets it all up. Admittedly these are solved problems but it all just feels a bit more messy compared to, say, a Go utility which can be just dropped and run.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 4y ago
    My personal rule of thumb is that if it requires something not in the Python standard library, it is no longer a script and requires a real development process.
izoow 4y ago
I find Ním super interesting and feel like it has a lot of potential. I wish it was more mainstream.
_0w8t 4y ago
I use PHP for administrative tasks on a server that runs wordpress and few other PHP apps. My only reservation is that PHP API to start external processes are awkward. They either use a shell and require careful escaping of arguments or too low level with explicit fork/exec. I took care of that with few utilities, but for a quick replacement of shell scripts this is a significant drawback. On the other hand modern PHP supports types out-of-the box. It turned out to be a big plus when those administrative scripts grew in size.
- porker 4y ago
  While it moves it from a single script to needing a composer.json and vendor directory, I find the Process component [1] has removed the footguns I used to encounter. 1. https://symfony.com/doc/current/components/process.html https://symfony.com/doc/current/components/process.html
lmm 4y ago
Java's "runtime needs" are a lot simpler than Python's - it's very easy to create a jar that works on any JVM back to 8 (which everyone has) or even earlier - although the language is unpleasantly verbose for ad-hoc scripting. (I work in Scala most of the time and write command line utilities in it too; the JVM startup is tedious but not worth the overhead of switching to a different language). Ruby also used to be a popular option in the sysadmin space; it's pretty similar to Python but hasn't shot itself in the foot quite as vigorously on the dependency management front. Something like Swift might be a good option in the "OCaml featureset + boring syntax + low startup overhead" space, which is what we're really looking for.
- noisy_boy 4y ago
  I like scala a lot but it I think it gives too many options to people that can be abused to show "cleverness" which is the last thing you want in a utility program. I stick to Scala basics and it is wonderfully concise compared to Java. Ah yes Swift is another excellent choice. I didnt like it much originally (few years ago) but based on an HN comment recently, went back to do the introductory tutorial. It has come a long way and is very pleasant to use. If I had to guess, its close association with Apple might bring "iOS"/"mac"-only connotations that might make folks not consider it. Don't know how I forgot about it.
- schemescape 4y ago
  Slight tangent: what’s the easiest Java runtime to setup? Is there a single binary JRE that’s fully open source? Edit: and not from Oracle? This is just an idle question I’ve had, not related in any way to Python.
  - TJSomething 4y ago
    Generally, I'd use Eclipse Temurin from Adoptium, if I not already in a Linux distro that has a JRE package.
IshKebab 4y ago
I use Deno for this. It's the only scripting system where you can actually have a single file script with no compilation needed and use third party libraries reliably. You also get great static types which is nice.
- cglong 4y ago
  Interesting! I knew F#, C#, and Elixir supported this scenario, but good to know Deno has this as well :)
  - IshKebab 4y ago
    Do F# and C# really support it? How do you specify dependencies from within the script?
    - cglong 4y ago
      Yeah! F# has native support[1] and C# can do it with a third-party tool[2]. For both, the syntax for referencing a third-party NuGet package inside the script is e.g.: #r "nuget: Newtonsoft.Json" [1]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/fsharp/tools/fsharp-interactive/#scripting-with-f https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/fsharp/tools/fsharp... [2]: https://github.com/dotnet-script/dotnet-script https://github.com/dotnet-script/dotnet-script
      - IshKebab 4y ago
        Very interesting, thanks for the info!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- networked 4y ago
  Deno is pretty nice for that. There are other systems that automatically satisfy dependencies for single-file scripts. I have gathered a list at https://dbohdan.com/scripts-with-dependencies https://dbohdan.com/scripts-with-dependencies. I am not sure about their individual reliability, because I have only written one example for most of them, but some are old, have users who rely on them for work, or both.
tastyminerals2 4y ago
Nim is a strange choice to come to mind while there is Lua. Much more approachable and lightweight glue language for numerous C libs and tools existing on any os. If you go in that direction than D seems like a better choice that could also come to mind. Basically C but with gc. All these are good choices for system scripting any day.
- dizhn 4y ago
  I am not saying this as an expert but I needed to set an environment variable with lua and it's not supported. You can read but not write them.(There's getenv but no setenv - i just looked it up and it's due to Ansi C not having the latter) I believe it has something to do with cross platform compatibility. This is pretty basic stuff. Maybe it's just the standard library and people just import something for it.
jstx1 4y ago
Are Python dependencies are problem for scripting given that you'll almost certainly use only the standard library? What can bash do for which you need a third-party library in Python?
- plonk 4y ago
  Argument parsing with argparse is a bit more tedious than click, and the "requests" dependency is very practical for HTTP requests. You could need a YAML parser...
Lyngbakr 4y ago
Babashka[0] is also a nice option for scripting, if you're a Clojure/Lisp fan. [0] https://babashka.org/ https://babashka.org/

koito17 4y ago

I wish there was something elaborated for scripts that run on Node. I've been using nbb[1] for scripting, and although it all runs through Node.js, it is fast to start up and quick to prototype/debug scripts. The best part is in CI I can simply `npx nbb path/to/script.cljs`. Things get clunky if I want to use anything outside of the Node stdlib (or the few things that come out of the box, like tools.cli for command-line argument parsing) though, since then you need the dreaded node_modules folder around. [1] https://github.com/babashka/nbb https://github.com/babashka/nbb

_0w8t 4y ago
Why is nbb or anything else necessary to run node scripts? Compared with a Python Node runtime does not come with all batteries included, but is rich enough to replace shell scripts. It even supports things like file system change notifiers, while Python requires external dependencies for that. So I run the scripts directly with node.

macrolocal 4y ago

Haskell is useful to stop other people from breaking your scripts.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

0cf8612b2e1e 4y ago

> Python is basically almost everywhere installed but the dependency on runtime + venv oddities bring their own set of problems Not that it changes your core message, but if you need scripting dependencies, you should use pipx[0]. Pipx will manage isolated virtual environments for each utility. ‘pipx install black’ will create a dedicated venv just to hold black. Invoking ‘pipx upgrade-all’ will scan all venvs for out of date utilities. [0] https://pypa.github.io/pipx/ https://pypa.github.io/pipx/

noisy_boy 4y ago
True but then the script needs to install its dependencies dynamically from a given host and hosts may have different configurations/network restrictions etc. Also, that'll result in scripts having to include their install related boilerplate which is besides the core functionality OR we need a separate script/stage that sets it all up. Admittedly these are solved problems but it all just feels a bit more messy compared to, say, a Go utility which can be just dropped and run.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 4y ago
  My personal rule of thumb is that if it requires something not in the Python standard library, it is no longer a script and requires a real development process.

izoow 4y ago

I find Ním super interesting and feel like it has a lot of potential. I wish it was more mainstream.

_0w8t 4y ago

I use PHP for administrative tasks on a server that runs wordpress and few other PHP apps. My only reservation is that PHP API to start external processes are awkward. They either use a shell and require careful escaping of arguments or too low level with explicit fork/exec. I took care of that with few utilities, but for a quick replacement of shell scripts this is a significant drawback. On the other hand modern PHP supports types out-of-the box. It turned out to be a big plus when those administrative scripts grew in size.

porker 4y ago
While it moves it from a single script to needing a composer.json and vendor directory, I find the Process component [1] has removed the footguns I used to encounter. 1. https://symfony.com/doc/current/components/process.html https://symfony.com/doc/current/components/process.html

lmm 4y ago

Java's "runtime needs" are a lot simpler than Python's - it's very easy to create a jar that works on any JVM back to 8 (which everyone has) or even earlier - although the language is unpleasantly verbose for ad-hoc scripting. (I work in Scala most of the time and write command line utilities in it too; the JVM startup is tedious but not worth the overhead of switching to a different language). Ruby also used to be a popular option in the sysadmin space; it's pretty similar to Python but hasn't shot itself in the foot quite as vigorously on the dependency management front. Something like Swift might be a good option in the "OCaml featureset + boring syntax + low startup overhead" space, which is what we're really looking for.

noisy_boy 4y ago
I like scala a lot but it I think it gives too many options to people that can be abused to show "cleverness" which is the last thing you want in a utility program. I stick to Scala basics and it is wonderfully concise compared to Java. Ah yes Swift is another excellent choice. I didnt like it much originally (few years ago) but based on an HN comment recently, went back to do the introductory tutorial. It has come a long way and is very pleasant to use. If I had to guess, its close association with Apple might bring "iOS"/"mac"-only connotations that might make folks not consider it. Don't know how I forgot about it.
schemescape 4y ago
Slight tangent: what’s the easiest Java runtime to setup? Is there a single binary JRE that’s fully open source? Edit: and not from Oracle? This is just an idle question I’ve had, not related in any way to Python.
- TJSomething 4y ago
  Generally, I'd use Eclipse Temurin from Adoptium, if I not already in a Linux distro that has a JRE package.

IshKebab 4y ago

I use Deno for this. It's the only scripting system where you can actually have a single file script with no compilation needed and use third party libraries reliably. You also get great static types which is nice.

cglong 4y ago
Interesting! I knew F#, C#, and Elixir supported this scenario, but good to know Deno has this as well :)
- IshKebab 4y ago
  Do F# and C# really support it? How do you specify dependencies from within the script?
  - cglong 4y ago
    Yeah! F# has native support[1] and C# can do it with a third-party tool[2]. For both, the syntax for referencing a third-party NuGet package inside the script is e.g.: #r "nuget: Newtonsoft.Json" [1]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/fsharp/tools/fsharp-interactive/#scripting-with-f https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/fsharp/tools/fsharp... [2]: https://github.com/dotnet-script/dotnet-script https://github.com/dotnet-script/dotnet-script
    - IshKebab 4y ago
      Very interesting, thanks for the info!
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
networked 4y ago
Deno is pretty nice for that. There are other systems that automatically satisfy dependencies for single-file scripts. I have gathered a list at https://dbohdan.com/scripts-with-dependencies https://dbohdan.com/scripts-with-dependencies. I am not sure about their individual reliability, because I have only written one example for most of them, but some are old, have users who rely on them for work, or both.

tastyminerals2 4y ago

Nim is a strange choice to come to mind while there is Lua. Much more approachable and lightweight glue language for numerous C libs and tools existing on any os. If you go in that direction than D seems like a better choice that could also come to mind. Basically C but with gc. All these are good choices for system scripting any day.

dizhn 4y ago
I am not saying this as an expert but I needed to set an environment variable with lua and it's not supported. You can read but not write them.(There's getenv but no setenv - i just looked it up and it's due to Ansi C not having the latter) I believe it has something to do with cross platform compatibility. This is pretty basic stuff. Maybe it's just the standard library and people just import something for it.

jstx1 4y ago

Are Python dependencies are problem for scripting given that you'll almost certainly use only the standard library? What can bash do for which you need a third-party library in Python?

plonk 4y ago
Argument parsing with argparse is a bit more tedious than click, and the "requests" dependency is very practical for HTTP requests. You could need a YAML parser...

Lyngbakr 4y ago

Babashka[0] is also a nice option for scripting, if you're a Clojure/Lisp fan. [0] https://babashka.org/ https://babashka.org/