5 ms·

India's Forgotten Mansions

142 points by rmason 4y ago

teruakohatu 4y ago
Not dissimilar to the rotting châteaus in Europe. Drastically expensive to maintain and modernise. The UK seems to be able to use tourism to maintain their stately homes, but even then nobody apparently wants to live in Buckingham Palace.
- ramraj07 4y ago
  The difference here is that these are not royalty, just an entire community (a caste) of people who made the money by trade. Every chettiyar I know still has their “big house” in karaikudi though I assume these are not as opulent as these old mansions (most of them spend at least a month in these places every year). The interesting part is how most of them are indistinguishable wealth wise from other community folks even though they clearly started with great wealth a few generations back.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Many of those stately manor homes used to house entire villages, because they'd have some noble, his family, his extended family, and the entire support staff and their families, too. As modernization took over, the number of people needed dwindled - some of them had hundreds of residents at their peak. Nowadays a single family could provide the entire support staff for a manor; and rapid vehicle transportation means you don't even need to do all the maintenance, you can call a repairman from a nearby city.
alephnerd 4y ago
This trend of building opulent Havelis as a status symbol by the diaspora still exists across South Asia to this day. Documentary about it among the Pakistani Norwegian community - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_fOYJ3_ZppM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_fOYJ3_ZppM Article about it among the Malayali community - https://theprint.in/features/kerala-has-a-ghost-houses-problem-but-the-state-just-doesnt-want-to-get-into-it/1455219/ https://theprint.in/features/kerala-has-a-ghost-houses-probl... And speaking from personal experience, my family has done similar stuff too in our ancestral village, though sadly it's increasingly abandoned as people move abroad or to larger cities to work as professionals.
- robocat 4y ago
  That really brings home our own foibles for trying to climb the property status ladder in my own country. Fabulous doco, thanks. The Malayali article is on archive here: https://archive.vn/iBLAZ https://archive.vn/iBLAZ
  - alephnerd 4y ago
    Oh dang! Which country? And yea, it seems to be common occurance in all small formerly agrarian towns. I've heard similar stories occur in towns with a heavy migrant presence in Ningxia, Southern Romania, and Honduras. The life of a Garbeister/Guest Worker/Blue Collar Migrant I guess.
    - robocat 4y ago
      Christchurch, New Zealand. It demonstrates the folly of everybody’s status driven home buying in most any city around the world. I think the underlying behaviour is is not limited to migrants: it is just that the migrants so clearly demonstrate how deeply irrational we all are. [edit: Stereotypically] we think of the migrants wasting money on empty houses as crazy people, without identifying with them as being exactly the same as ourselves. In fact the folly is more of a problem in developed countries because homeowners usually borrow as much money as they can to compete with others to buy a home: yet somehow a huge mortgage is not seen as irrational. Disclaimer: I have a mortgage and on paper I have done very well on house appreciation over the last few years. I believe that renting is shorting the property market because we each require 1 unit of shelter. I admit I have been long the property investment market (even worse: mortgages are highly geared investments, and you can only get mortgages similar to variable mortgages in New Zealand).
      - alephnerd 4y ago
        I think you are misinterpreting the article and my post above, and honestly it is kind of insulting to compare first world house ownership with building unused property in your ancestral town.
sagaro 4y ago
A few days back there was a HN submission on everything moving towards the average. Buildings looking the same. Skylines in many cities looking similar. The cars looking similar. There are also these meme posts on twitter "why we don't build such houses/buildings today" with some photo of a 13th century castle or cathedral. It all boils down to economics. Average is cost efficient. Standardize the raw materials. Optimize the raw material for easy storage, handling and transporting. When made this way, it is also easier to maintain, find parts (door handles, replacement faucet, switch boards etc.) The chettinad houses are super customized. The pillars are from Burma (Myanmar) teak wood seasoned for months in sea water, the walls are polished with egg white (no paint), the tile work and the intricate carvings on the doors and pillars are all a pain when it comes to economics. It is not just the cost to maintain them. The people with knowhow on how to maintain these are long gone. The new generation engineers only know how to build things the standard/average way with the standard materials.
- monero-xmr 4y ago
  Maintaining beautiful, intricate old buildings costs money and I categorize it as an expensive hobby. There are people with the means and desire to do so (myself included) but it’s not for everyone. There are people who can fix anything but it comes at a price. I will say I wake up every day in aesthetically pleasing beauty and that, to me, is priceless. Or at least that’s what I tell myself when the latest 5 figure repair comes in.
  - Aeolun 4y ago
    Ultimately not much you can do with money except spend it on things you enjoy. Spending it on the place you spend 50% of your time in sounds like a pretty good idea.
    - badpun 4y ago
      You can also work less, so that you never had that money in the first place.
anigbrowl 4y ago
I'm mystified as to why abandoned buildings are not squatted by poorer people, or if they are why the article doesn't mention it.
- senttoschool 4y ago
  If you're poor, what would a bigger house do for you except more energy to maintain it?
  - ido 4y ago
    Surely better than living on the streets? It was a long time since I visited India (almost 20 years ago now), but when I went there were so many homeless people that on the way between the airport and Delhi city-center at night entire sidewalks were tightly packed with homeless people sleeping on them next to one another without gaps.
    - lmm 4y ago
      Those people are in the cities because they have jobs, or the hope of finding them, or at least enough people to beg from and dumpsters to dive. Maybe out in the country they'd find a roof to shelter under, but that doesn't do much good if you've got no food or money and no way to get either.
    - qart 4y ago
      Yes, you'll see homeless people on the footpaths of Indian cities. I have visited plenty of small towns, but I can't recall seeing homeless people there at all. Quite a lot of the footpath dwellers come from nomadic communities, selling things like clay pots, handicrafts, etc. I don't know what percent of footpath dwellers are from such communities, or any other aspects of their demographics though. At least in Bangalore, I know from the language they speak that they are not from this state.
      - rockyj 4y ago
        Yeah, outside of Mumbai I have seen very few "homeless". In India there is always a room to stay depending on the budget or how much you are willing to "travel". India also does not have a huge drug problem, and of course there is always the option of staying with parents / relatives / friends or going back to the native village. In cities with limited space and crazy real-estate prices like Mumbai it is different.
WalterBright 4y ago
Most mansions I wouldn't even want to live in. They look like museums inside - not very comfortable. The rooms are too large, the ceilings too far away. If I was going to build one, I'd build the crumbling castle from Edward Scissorhands - at least for the exterior.
- samarthr1 4y ago
  The ceiling being far away is a feature, not a bug. High ceilings help Karu the room cool, something needed in our fine country
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Also you have proportions - a large room with a low ceiling feels claustrophobic or depressing, part of the reason cube farms can seem so unnatural.
kamaal 4y ago
The real issues with these 'Havelis' as to say is they are pointlessly large without serving any end purpose. If you see the pictures. There is no concept of privacy. You could see the inside of rooms from the main hall. There are no rest rooms attached to bedrooms. There is often poor ventilation. There are 'living rooms', there are no other myriad other facilities and features people expect in the modern context of life. They are basically irrlevant.
- lagolinguini 4y ago
  > If you see the pictures. There is no concept of privacy. I feel like you are looking at this from a western perspective. Normally Indian families have a much more communal culture. Lots of significance is given to common and shared areas. > There is often poor ventilation. This is also untrue. This might be something you have observed in poorly maintained houses that have been expanded with poor and unplanned construction, but traditionally Indian houses like havelis etc. are extremely well ventilated. You have to remember these were originally developed in a hot country before the advent of air conditioning. The windows and openings are often designed with ventilation in mind with jalis (intricate meshes) that adorn the openings to block sunlight and allow airflow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jali https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jali
spaceman_2020 4y ago
If anyone in India has the time, I highly recommend visiting the towns around the Shekhavati region in Rajasthan. Every town is dotted with old mansions (“havelis”) - some maintained, some not - with some incredible architecture and fresco work.
- indus 4y ago
  I have been to that region—-The food, the havelis, the people. Full of memories.
sgaur 4y ago
Very beautiful to see. On a recent visit to the Amer palace in Rajasthan (India), I was wondering how cool it'll be when AR tech evolves so that tourists visiting such places can get a much more immersive view of such monuments in their historic glory (complete with people speaking, music of the era, and whatnot). If anyone wants to co-build something in this space, please let me know!
Aeolun 4y ago
> Renovation expenses of Chettinad's homes can run into thousands of dollars. Is it just me, or does that sound exceptionally cheap given what’s in the pictures? I’d expect hundreds of thousands of dollars.
- lagolinguini 4y ago
  Labour is much cheaper in India. Labour is the most expensive part of maintaining such houses. Given India's median income is much lower than the west, this price is still very expensive for most Indian families.
funnyfoobar 4y ago
we used to have an antique bed frame of king size, and it used to have a mirror which is imported from Belgium. My great grandfather who used to be rich got it custom made. It used to be so majestic, made of rose wood. The my dad got it broken down into two beds. I wish i had pics to show, but at those times photos used to cost something as you have to spend a reel film on it.

142 points by rmason 4y ago

Not dissimilar to the rotting châteaus in Europe. Drastically expensive to maintain and modernise. The UK seems to be able to use tourism to maintain their stately homes, but even then nobody apparently wants to live in Buckingham Palace.

ramraj07 4y ago
The difference here is that these are not royalty, just an entire community (a caste) of people who made the money by trade. Every chettiyar I know still has their “big house” in karaikudi though I assume these are not as opulent as these old mansions (most of them spend at least a month in these places every year). The interesting part is how most of them are indistinguishable wealth wise from other community folks even though they clearly started with great wealth a few generations back.
bombcar 4y ago
Many of those stately manor homes used to house entire villages, because they'd have some noble, his family, his extended family, and the entire support staff and their families, too. As modernization took over, the number of people needed dwindled - some of them had hundreds of residents at their peak. Nowadays a single family could provide the entire support staff for a manor; and rapid vehicle transportation means you don't even need to do all the maintenance, you can call a repairman from a nearby city.

alephnerd 4y ago

This trend of building opulent Havelis as a status symbol by the diaspora still exists across South Asia to this day. Documentary about it among the Pakistani Norwegian community - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_fOYJ3_ZppM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_fOYJ3_ZppM Article about it among the Malayali community - https://theprint.in/features/kerala-has-a-ghost-houses-problem-but-the-state-just-doesnt-want-to-get-into-it/1455219/ https://theprint.in/features/kerala-has-a-ghost-houses-probl... And speaking from personal experience, my family has done similar stuff too in our ancestral village, though sadly it's increasingly abandoned as people move abroad or to larger cities to work as professionals.

robocat 4y ago
That really brings home our own foibles for trying to climb the property status ladder in my own country. Fabulous doco, thanks. The Malayali article is on archive here: https://archive.vn/iBLAZ https://archive.vn/iBLAZ
- alephnerd 4y ago
  Oh dang! Which country? And yea, it seems to be common occurance in all small formerly agrarian towns. I've heard similar stories occur in towns with a heavy migrant presence in Ningxia, Southern Romania, and Honduras. The life of a Garbeister/Guest Worker/Blue Collar Migrant I guess.
  - robocat 4y ago
    Christchurch, New Zealand. It demonstrates the folly of everybody’s status driven home buying in most any city around the world. I think the underlying behaviour is is not limited to migrants: it is just that the migrants so clearly demonstrate how deeply irrational we all are. [edit: Stereotypically] we think of the migrants wasting money on empty houses as crazy people, without identifying with them as being exactly the same as ourselves. In fact the folly is more of a problem in developed countries because homeowners usually borrow as much money as they can to compete with others to buy a home: yet somehow a huge mortgage is not seen as irrational. Disclaimer: I have a mortgage and on paper I have done very well on house appreciation over the last few years. I believe that renting is shorting the property market because we each require 1 unit of shelter. I admit I have been long the property investment market (even worse: mortgages are highly geared investments, and you can only get mortgages similar to variable mortgages in New Zealand).
    - alephnerd 4y ago
      I think you are misinterpreting the article and my post above, and honestly it is kind of insulting to compare first world house ownership with building unused property in your ancestral town.

sagaro 4y ago

A few days back there was a HN submission on everything moving towards the average. Buildings looking the same. Skylines in many cities looking similar. The cars looking similar. There are also these meme posts on twitter "why we don't build such houses/buildings today" with some photo of a 13th century castle or cathedral. It all boils down to economics. Average is cost efficient. Standardize the raw materials. Optimize the raw material for easy storage, handling and transporting. When made this way, it is also easier to maintain, find parts (door handles, replacement faucet, switch boards etc.) The chettinad houses are super customized. The pillars are from Burma (Myanmar) teak wood seasoned for months in sea water, the walls are polished with egg white (no paint), the tile work and the intricate carvings on the doors and pillars are all a pain when it comes to economics. It is not just the cost to maintain them. The people with knowhow on how to maintain these are long gone. The new generation engineers only know how to build things the standard/average way with the standard materials.

monero-xmr 4y ago
Maintaining beautiful, intricate old buildings costs money and I categorize it as an expensive hobby. There are people with the means and desire to do so (myself included) but it’s not for everyone. There are people who can fix anything but it comes at a price. I will say I wake up every day in aesthetically pleasing beauty and that, to me, is priceless. Or at least that’s what I tell myself when the latest 5 figure repair comes in.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  Ultimately not much you can do with money except spend it on things you enjoy. Spending it on the place you spend 50% of your time in sounds like a pretty good idea.
  - badpun 4y ago
    You can also work less, so that you never had that money in the first place.

anigbrowl 4y ago

I'm mystified as to why abandoned buildings are not squatted by poorer people, or if they are why the article doesn't mention it.

senttoschool 4y ago
If you're poor, what would a bigger house do for you except more energy to maintain it?
- ido 4y ago
  Surely better than living on the streets? It was a long time since I visited India (almost 20 years ago now), but when I went there were so many homeless people that on the way between the airport and Delhi city-center at night entire sidewalks were tightly packed with homeless people sleeping on them next to one another without gaps.
  - lmm 4y ago
    Those people are in the cities because they have jobs, or the hope of finding them, or at least enough people to beg from and dumpsters to dive. Maybe out in the country they'd find a roof to shelter under, but that doesn't do much good if you've got no food or money and no way to get either.
  - qart 4y ago
    Yes, you'll see homeless people on the footpaths of Indian cities. I have visited plenty of small towns, but I can't recall seeing homeless people there at all. Quite a lot of the footpath dwellers come from nomadic communities, selling things like clay pots, handicrafts, etc. I don't know what percent of footpath dwellers are from such communities, or any other aspects of their demographics though. At least in Bangalore, I know from the language they speak that they are not from this state.
    - rockyj 4y ago
      Yeah, outside of Mumbai I have seen very few "homeless". In India there is always a room to stay depending on the budget or how much you are willing to "travel". India also does not have a huge drug problem, and of course there is always the option of staying with parents / relatives / friends or going back to the native village. In cities with limited space and crazy real-estate prices like Mumbai it is different.

WalterBright 4y ago

Most mansions I wouldn't even want to live in. They look like museums inside - not very comfortable. The rooms are too large, the ceilings too far away. If I was going to build one, I'd build the crumbling castle from Edward Scissorhands - at least for the exterior.

samarthr1 4y ago
The ceiling being far away is a feature, not a bug. High ceilings help Karu the room cool, something needed in our fine country
- bombcar 4y ago
  Also you have proportions - a large room with a low ceiling feels claustrophobic or depressing, part of the reason cube farms can seem so unnatural.

kamaal 4y ago

The real issues with these 'Havelis' as to say is they are pointlessly large without serving any end purpose. If you see the pictures. There is no concept of privacy. You could see the inside of rooms from the main hall. There are no rest rooms attached to bedrooms. There is often poor ventilation. There are 'living rooms', there are no other myriad other facilities and features people expect in the modern context of life. They are basically irrlevant.

lagolinguini 4y ago
> If you see the pictures. There is no concept of privacy. I feel like you are looking at this from a western perspective. Normally Indian families have a much more communal culture. Lots of significance is given to common and shared areas. > There is often poor ventilation. This is also untrue. This might be something you have observed in poorly maintained houses that have been expanded with poor and unplanned construction, but traditionally Indian houses like havelis etc. are extremely well ventilated. You have to remember these were originally developed in a hot country before the advent of air conditioning. The windows and openings are often designed with ventilation in mind with jalis (intricate meshes) that adorn the openings to block sunlight and allow airflow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jali https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jali

spaceman_2020 4y ago

If anyone in India has the time, I highly recommend visiting the towns around the Shekhavati region in Rajasthan. Every town is dotted with old mansions (“havelis”) - some maintained, some not - with some incredible architecture and fresco work.

indus 4y ago
I have been to that region—-The food, the havelis, the people. Full of memories.

sgaur 4y ago

Very beautiful to see. On a recent visit to the Amer palace in Rajasthan (India), I was wondering how cool it'll be when AR tech evolves so that tourists visiting such places can get a much more immersive view of such monuments in their historic glory (complete with people speaking, music of the era, and whatnot). If anyone wants to co-build something in this space, please let me know!

Aeolun 4y ago

> Renovation expenses of Chettinad's homes can run into thousands of dollars. Is it just me, or does that sound exceptionally cheap given what’s in the pictures? I’d expect hundreds of thousands of dollars.

lagolinguini 4y ago
Labour is much cheaper in India. Labour is the most expensive part of maintaining such houses. Given India's median income is much lower than the west, this price is still very expensive for most Indian families.

funnyfoobar 4y ago

we used to have an antique bed frame of king size, and it used to have a mirror which is imported from Belgium. My great grandfather who used to be rich got it custom made. It used to be so majestic, made of rose wood. The my dad got it broken down into two beds. I wish i had pics to show, but at those times photos used to cost something as you have to spend a reel film on it.