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I'm at the point where I feel fed up with too much talk about self-improvement. It's ok to not be productive and just enjoy things. Enjoy relationships, the sun

I'm at the point where I feel fed up with too much talk about self-improvement. It's ok to not be productive and just enjoy things. Enjoy relationships, the sunshine, even video games or something that is literally a waste of time. Maybe I got burned out by goal-setting and productivity talk. It also might be some remnants of some mild depression I had lately. I guess I just don't like feeling pressured to constantly improve, otherwise I'm not "living 100%" like I should be. So when I read things like this, it grates my nerves: >> "In this process though you will become a better human being. You will get better at living. You will have less pain down the road. Your path will be smoother." It suggests the inverse: that if you're not improving, you're less of a human being. I'm not sure if the author meant it that way, but that's definitely the way I took it.

scarecrowbob 3y ago
That's a relatable feeling. My understanding is that the larger culture context, in which our worth is determined by our value as a worker, would be the locus of that feeling. Like, I really don't feel like a "better" person because I learned how to use the CLI more efficiently. I may even find the term "better" in that context to be offensive: I'm not better because I learned how to deal with the shambling tower of shit that is WordPress at the institutional level. I enjoy the money and the security of a job, but I hate that my security is premised on my willingness to put up with that shitty system. Ironically, the way that I've dealt with my own feelings about this has been to lean into dumb crap that obviously has no value in a larger context. Learning chess or getting better at math are a couple of examples of things that it just felt fun and freeing to be better at, simply because I like them. Lately it's been card manipulations. I've leaned into playing a lot of musical instruments, and I am fortunate to work from home as I play literally all day. And that's been somewhat freeing because as much as I enjoy the feeling of improving some of my skills, that enjoyment has been often leveraged against me to get me to do jobs I hate. Like, I've spent a lot of time fixing dumb stuff just because I have learned how to enjoy the process, but since it's dumb stuff it's a bit soul crushing to do it unless I just want to do it. In that context, I feel like I can draw a line between the stuff that really is fun and useful to me and the stuff I'm able to grind on because that's what I was trained to do. That distinction has made my practice on a lot of things (from music to working on getting better at relating to people) feel more liberating and less like shitty hustle culture.
switchbak 3y ago
Contentment is a real thing, and valuable. There's a balance between trying to improve and being ok with how you are in your life right now. I think North American society takes things a bit too far down the side of self improvement. If you take my 12 step course, you too can learn how to level up your Contentment Quotient. If you act now we'll also throw in a free weight loss program!
slothtrop 3y ago
> self-improvement > productive Self-improvement might be a 'productive' use of time in the capacity that it is viewed as a positive, but it's not defined exactly by productivity qua work. "Enjoying relationships" and sunshine is self-improvement for those who don't; you literally just said something prescriptive, which requires action, which makes it productive. Take therapy for instance, like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. The whole point is to help you stop agonizing and indulging distorted thinking, to let go of things so you can better enjoy your life. That's self-improvement. The problem with the rhetoric I see here is it's used as a deflection against change, when something's wrong. A bait-and-switch tactic. "Why worry about grinding away at juggling therapy and eating real food and doing the bare minimum exercise to stay healthy? Let's not stress ourselves. Drinking myself stupid 'sparks joy', I'll just not think about it, life is short [insert aphorism]". I think there's an important difference between slowing down to enjoy life and making rationalizations against fixing problems.
dbtc 3y ago
> It's ok to not be productive and just enjoy things. Enjoy relationships, the sunshine, even video games or something that is literally a waste of time. That's not so easy for some folks, at least at first. Not until they... practice ;)
ryangs 3y ago
I think the important thing is to find a balance that satisfies you. If you never do any self improvement, you might be missing out on a much better life that would cost you relatively little to get to. But maybe your current life is hunky-dory, in which case, that's great, you do you! And over-focus on "self-improvement" may mean you miss out on things along the way. Making yourself miss those things may be more of a decline than improvement for you.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I agree. I'd only add that, in my opinion, self-improvement should be a joy in itself, not a burden or drudgery. If it's not joyful, what's the point? Even if it's just to further your career goals (which it shouldn't be just that), the lack of joy in doing it might be a strong hint that your career goals are not well-aligned with your personality.
DotaFan 3y ago
Web became place of distraction. Everyone wants your attention. Personally, as soon as video starts with "Hear me out.." I turn it off.
waynesonfire 3y ago
> that if you're not improving, you're less of a human being. If you're not improving, then you're not improving. What more is there to that? If you had improved, maybe you'd be a better human, or not. Maybe you've transcended the idea and by not improving you grow to be a better human. Regardless of the scenario, it's your ego that is the judge.
prottog 3y ago
> if you're not improving, you're less of a human being I mean, it's true. The version of you that was a couch potato for four hours on a Saturday is less good than the version that went for a run, lifted weights, home-brewed beer, met someone for coffee, or whatever self-improvement you might have done. (I don't agree that enjoying relationships is contrary to self-improvement.) Of course, opportunity cost is a thing, and we will never know what action or inaction you took was the "best" or "right" one. The better way to approach it, in my view, is to accept the fact that if you're not improving and being productive, in some ways you are indeed a worse version of you than you could be; but in the Stoic tradition, to divorce that fact from how you feel about it emotionally -- as you said, it's OK. Perhaps you can trend towards being better without self-flagellating when you're not.
- xboxnolifes 3y ago
  > The version of you that was a couch potato for four hours on a Saturday is less good than the version that went for a run, lifted weights, home-brewed beer, met someone for coffee, or whatever self-improvement you might have done. How so? I see many people assert this, but I've yet to see someone be able to articulate why (that isn't trivially refutable). Are we measuring by happiness? Contentment? External validation? Popularity? Legacy? Fitness? Total number of experiences? Something else? And, for any chosen metric, why is that metric important?
  - ozim 3y ago
    I think only proper metric is "future quality of life". Sitting on couch watching TV - you are sure it is not going to contribute to your well being in 10-20-40 years. To be able to do some pushups while you are 70y.o. - you have to do hundreds of pushups while you were 20y.o. I don't know anyone who wants to have a heart attack or spend his last 5-10 years of life in a hospital bed. So I am not writing about quality of life like getting a Porsche, because grabbing coffee with a friend or home brewing won't land you that. Having a habit of doing something, walking somewhere gets you going and if someone hits 70y.o. and they are couch potato, they will be in for a world of pain. Where if they would grab a coffee with their friends from time to time do some hobby they will have some lasting relations and stuff to do. Well I suppose it is not trivially refutable - but happy to see what would be the refutation.
llamataboot 3y ago
You can also practice being content and happy not improving, I think that's still a "practice" in the sense of this essay
eropple 3y ago
I feel like there's a difference of kind between the hyper-competitive "you must be better at this to Be Productive" and what's being espoused here. I've always been a tinkerer and all that. Rarely with any goal in mind, either; like the author of this blog post, it's always been practice for the sake of it. As I've gotten older, though, the benefits of that tinkering have been accruing over time. It lends itself to a more thorough understanding of the world, which helps in little concrete ways--if you asked me how much I know about mechanical systems I'd say "nothing" but in truth I can get by pretty well from servicing small woodworking tools and from designing stuff for a 3D printer--to the large--having a deeper understanding of why the world is the way it is through history and philosophy and political science. I do a lot of this practice. I would also say that I'm pretty happy and, in most ways, content with where my life is. Doing more, at that point, is internal practice, not external competition. It's mind-and-soul exercise. And practicing saying no, practicing relaxation, counts too. Just, like with everything else--don't do that too much.
SteveDR 3y ago
> In this process though you will become a better human being. You will get better at living. You will have less pain down the road. Your path will be smoother. I mean it’s hard to argue that you should do things that get in the way of this pursuit. I agree with your sentiment, but I think your definition of self-improvement is off if it doesn’t include leisure, because finding healthy ways of incorporating leisure into your life definitely makes your “path” “smoother”. Like, my ideal self isn’t a 100x engineer that sleeps at the office most nights. My ideal self spends time with his family, and cares for friends even if they don’t offer me anything tangible, and has hobbies that won’t result in measurable benefits to my “productivity”. So doing those things is self-improvement because I’m moving towards my own definition of success.
JohnFen 3y ago
> It's ok to not be productive and just enjoy things. It's not only OK, it's absolutely essential. > if you're not improving, you're less of a human being I don't think that's the message that you should take. Your value as a human being is independent of all that. However, I think there's an element of truth to "if you're not growing, you're dying."
- groby_b 3y ago
  Well, if you're growing, you're still dying. You're a human, not a cancer cell.
RHSman2 3y ago
There are plenty examples of people who took that attitude and aren’t/weren’t good humans. You are good enough as you are. Sure, there is a better version of yourself and everyday is an opportunity to be a little better BUT your value as a human has NOTHING to do with any of this shit. Time for rest and recovery is good.

scarecrowbob 3y ago

That's a relatable feeling. My understanding is that the larger culture context, in which our worth is determined by our value as a worker, would be the locus of that feeling. Like, I really don't feel like a "better" person because I learned how to use the CLI more efficiently. I may even find the term "better" in that context to be offensive: I'm not better because I learned how to deal with the shambling tower of shit that is WordPress at the institutional level. I enjoy the money and the security of a job, but I hate that my security is premised on my willingness to put up with that shitty system. Ironically, the way that I've dealt with my own feelings about this has been to lean into dumb crap that obviously has no value in a larger context. Learning chess or getting better at math are a couple of examples of things that it just felt fun and freeing to be better at, simply because I like them. Lately it's been card manipulations. I've leaned into playing a lot of musical instruments, and I am fortunate to work from home as I play literally all day. And that's been somewhat freeing because as much as I enjoy the feeling of improving some of my skills, that enjoyment has been often leveraged against me to get me to do jobs I hate. Like, I've spent a lot of time fixing dumb stuff just because I have learned how to enjoy the process, but since it's dumb stuff it's a bit soul crushing to do it unless I just want to do it. In that context, I feel like I can draw a line between the stuff that really is fun and useful to me and the stuff I'm able to grind on because that's what I was trained to do. That distinction has made my practice on a lot of things (from music to working on getting better at relating to people) feel more liberating and less like shitty hustle culture.

switchbak 3y ago

Contentment is a real thing, and valuable. There's a balance between trying to improve and being ok with how you are in your life right now. I think North American society takes things a bit too far down the side of self improvement. If you take my 12 step course, you too can learn how to level up your Contentment Quotient. If you act now we'll also throw in a free weight loss program!

slothtrop 3y ago

> self-improvement > productive Self-improvement might be a 'productive' use of time in the capacity that it is viewed as a positive, but it's not defined exactly by productivity qua work. "Enjoying relationships" and sunshine is self-improvement for those who don't; you literally just said something prescriptive, which requires action, which makes it productive. Take therapy for instance, like Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. The whole point is to help you stop agonizing and indulging distorted thinking, to let go of things so you can better enjoy your life. That's self-improvement. The problem with the rhetoric I see here is it's used as a deflection against change, when something's wrong. A bait-and-switch tactic. "Why worry about grinding away at juggling therapy and eating real food and doing the bare minimum exercise to stay healthy? Let's not stress ourselves. Drinking myself stupid 'sparks joy', I'll just not think about it, life is short [insert aphorism]". I think there's an important difference between slowing down to enjoy life and making rationalizations against fixing problems.

dbtc 3y ago

> It's ok to not be productive and just enjoy things. Enjoy relationships, the sunshine, even video games or something that is literally a waste of time. That's not so easy for some folks, at least at first. Not until they... practice ;)

ryangs 3y ago

I think the important thing is to find a balance that satisfies you. If you never do any self improvement, you might be missing out on a much better life that would cost you relatively little to get to. But maybe your current life is hunky-dory, in which case, that's great, you do you! And over-focus on "self-improvement" may mean you miss out on things along the way. Making yourself miss those things may be more of a decline than improvement for you.

JohnFen 3y ago
I agree. I'd only add that, in my opinion, self-improvement should be a joy in itself, not a burden or drudgery. If it's not joyful, what's the point? Even if it's just to further your career goals (which it shouldn't be just that), the lack of joy in doing it might be a strong hint that your career goals are not well-aligned with your personality.

DotaFan 3y ago

Web became place of distraction. Everyone wants your attention. Personally, as soon as video starts with "Hear me out.." I turn it off.

waynesonfire 3y ago

> that if you're not improving, you're less of a human being. If you're not improving, then you're not improving. What more is there to that? If you had improved, maybe you'd be a better human, or not. Maybe you've transcended the idea and by not improving you grow to be a better human. Regardless of the scenario, it's your ego that is the judge.

prottog 3y ago

> if you're not improving, you're less of a human being I mean, it's true. The version of you that was a couch potato for four hours on a Saturday is less good than the version that went for a run, lifted weights, home-brewed beer, met someone for coffee, or whatever self-improvement you might have done. (I don't agree that enjoying relationships is contrary to self-improvement.) Of course, opportunity cost is a thing, and we will never know what action or inaction you took was the "best" or "right" one. The better way to approach it, in my view, is to accept the fact that if you're not improving and being productive, in some ways you are indeed a worse version of you than you could be; but in the Stoic tradition, to divorce that fact from how you feel about it emotionally -- as you said, it's OK. Perhaps you can trend towards being better without self-flagellating when you're not.

xboxnolifes 3y ago
> The version of you that was a couch potato for four hours on a Saturday is less good than the version that went for a run, lifted weights, home-brewed beer, met someone for coffee, or whatever self-improvement you might have done. How so? I see many people assert this, but I've yet to see someone be able to articulate why (that isn't trivially refutable). Are we measuring by happiness? Contentment? External validation? Popularity? Legacy? Fitness? Total number of experiences? Something else? And, for any chosen metric, why is that metric important?
- ozim 3y ago
  I think only proper metric is "future quality of life". Sitting on couch watching TV - you are sure it is not going to contribute to your well being in 10-20-40 years. To be able to do some pushups while you are 70y.o. - you have to do hundreds of pushups while you were 20y.o. I don't know anyone who wants to have a heart attack or spend his last 5-10 years of life in a hospital bed. So I am not writing about quality of life like getting a Porsche, because grabbing coffee with a friend or home brewing won't land you that. Having a habit of doing something, walking somewhere gets you going and if someone hits 70y.o. and they are couch potato, they will be in for a world of pain. Where if they would grab a coffee with their friends from time to time do some hobby they will have some lasting relations and stuff to do. Well I suppose it is not trivially refutable - but happy to see what would be the refutation.

llamataboot 3y ago

You can also practice being content and happy not improving, I think that's still a "practice" in the sense of this essay

eropple 3y ago

I feel like there's a difference of kind between the hyper-competitive "you must be better at this to Be Productive" and what's being espoused here. I've always been a tinkerer and all that. Rarely with any goal in mind, either; like the author of this blog post, it's always been practice for the sake of it. As I've gotten older, though, the benefits of that tinkering have been accruing over time. It lends itself to a more thorough understanding of the world, which helps in little concrete ways--if you asked me how much I know about mechanical systems I'd say "nothing" but in truth I can get by pretty well from servicing small woodworking tools and from designing stuff for a 3D printer--to the large--having a deeper understanding of why the world is the way it is through history and philosophy and political science. I do a lot of this practice. I would also say that I'm pretty happy and, in most ways, content with where my life is. Doing more, at that point, is internal practice, not external competition. It's mind-and-soul exercise. And practicing saying no, practicing relaxation, counts too. Just, like with everything else--don't do that too much.

SteveDR 3y ago

> In this process though you will become a better human being. You will get better at living. You will have less pain down the road. Your path will be smoother. I mean it’s hard to argue that you should do things that get in the way of this pursuit. I agree with your sentiment, but I think your definition of self-improvement is off if it doesn’t include leisure, because finding healthy ways of incorporating leisure into your life definitely makes your “path” “smoother”. Like, my ideal self isn’t a 100x engineer that sleeps at the office most nights. My ideal self spends time with his family, and cares for friends even if they don’t offer me anything tangible, and has hobbies that won’t result in measurable benefits to my “productivity”. So doing those things is self-improvement because I’m moving towards my own definition of success.

JohnFen 3y ago

> It's ok to not be productive and just enjoy things. It's not only OK, it's absolutely essential. > if you're not improving, you're less of a human being I don't think that's the message that you should take. Your value as a human being is independent of all that. However, I think there's an element of truth to "if you're not growing, you're dying."

groby_b 3y ago
Well, if you're growing, you're still dying. You're a human, not a cancer cell.

RHSman2 3y ago

There are plenty examples of people who took that attitude and aren’t/weren’t good humans. You are good enough as you are. Sure, there is a better version of yourself and everyday is an opportunity to be a little better BUT your value as a human has NOTHING to do with any of this shit. Time for rest and recovery is good.