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> outsourcing a very large fraction of all manufacturing for half the world to a single non-democratic country doesn't serve our interests in the long run You

> outsourcing a very large fraction of all manufacturing for half the world to a single non-democratic country doesn't serve our interests in the long run You do realise that a sizeable chunk of the world's oil and gas are sourced from "non-democratic" countries in the Middle East, yet somehow we leave them alone to openly torture, abuse and murder their citizens? And on top of that they're left alone to operate a cartel (OPEC) that holds the world to ransom when they decide one day to cut production and push up prices. Feels like there's a whole load of double standards on display here.

WillPostForFood 4y ago
yet somehow we leave them alone to openly torture, abuse and murder their citizens Huh, like maybe "a sizeable chunk of the world's oil and gas are sourced from "non-democratic" countries in the Middle East" is the problem, and the reason those countries get a pass? So like we shouldn't be outsourcing manufacturing, we shouldn't be outsourcing energy production to terrible countries.
- Retric 4y ago
  If by we you mean the US then we don’t. The US has effectively zero direct dependence on middle eastern oil due to domestic production and transportation costs. Canada is much closer and has a lot of oil. Where it matters is they can impact the global prices and thus what people pay at the pump. Though the actual profits from such spikes in American gas prices end up going to suppliers in America or Canada.
  - teh_klev 4y ago
    > The US has effectively zero direct dependence on middle eastern oil due to domestic production and transportation costs For now and whilst those extraction costs are cheaper domestically. The US needs the Saudis as a backstop and for infill of the types of crude oils the North American continent doesn't have access to or is in limited supply. They're also a handy client state to do the US's dirty work in the Middle East, see Yemen for example. The US also needs the Saudi's and their non-democratic allies to keep buying weapon systems to prop up Lockheed, Boeing et al. You need to look at the bigger picture.
    - tw1984 4y ago
      > You need to look at the bigger picture. The big picture is that the US needs middle east countries to price their oil in USD. Everything else is just a bonus.
      - vkou 4y ago
        The world's USD-settled oil trade is a tiny fraction of overall USD-settled trade. The petrodollar is an interesting theory, but it doesn't really hold up to very much scrutiny.
        somenameforme 4y ago
        Imagine you created a new currency in the US: FidoBucks. Not even a crypto but a regular currency you can print at your whim. Obviously nobody's really going to want your currency and it will have zero value. But now imagine, after some backdoor deals, you make it such that FidoBucks are literally the only currency accepted at gas stations. And not only that both those gas stations agree to spend any extra profits they make buying in FidoBuck denominated treasuries. Now not only are people going to want your currency, but they will literally need it. And since FidoBucks are now directly tied to access of a critical commodity, it will have also have a guaranteed minimum "value" that's tied to the cost of oil. So people can feel pretty comfortable holding and trading Fidobucks. In fact the new stability of your currency means you'd likely see people starting to trade it for far more than oil, to the point that gas becomes just a fraction of its trade. This is essentially what the petrodollar did, but it of course started from a far higher point than zero of course. Once we ended the fixed convertibility of the USD to gold in 1971 [1], demand in the dollar started rapidly declining, and its relative value began decreasing. After the petrodollar this all reversed, hard. It's to assign a specific value to any of these changes, because it's all dynamic - just like in our simplified FidoBucks example so much would depend on the dynamic scarcity of gas, how many FidoBucks you print, the total value of outside trade, and a million other variables. What is safe to say is that it dramatically strengthened the position of the currency, and is a large reason that until extremely recently, if China and Russia were trading - they'd settle that trade in USD. Now they're trying to create the next FidoBuck backed by a combination of land, gold, and other finite resources. [1] - https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
  - WillPostForFood 4y ago
    We get ~12% of our oil from the middle east which is consequential but not what I meant. You'll note that after Biden called Saudi Arabia a Pariah state, he was forced to reverse course and head over, hat in hand, and beg for more production. Not because of the 12% (or 10% or 8%), we directly consume, but because of the impact on inflation and the world economy. So yes, we are beholden to middle east oil, not because we directly consume it, but because of the impact on energy prices and inflation. If we were maximizing our own energy production, not just for domestic consumption but for export, we could lessen that impact and the influence they have.
    - Retric 4y ago
      It’s 2.6% not 12%. https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-products/imports-and-exports.php https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-produc... “About 9% of U.S. total petroleum imports and 9% of U.S. crude oil imports were from Persian Gulf countries in 2021.” However the US produces 20 Billion barrels of oil vs 8 Billion barrels of imports. So that 9% is really 9% * (8B / (8B + 20B)) = 2.6% of the US’s total oil supply. Further that 8 Billion barrels of imports almost exactly equals our 8 Billion barrels of exports. There are many reasons to imports and export oil over the course of a year for example seasonal demand varies, but if it goes to 0 we can also stop our exports.
      - Retric 4y ago
        “About 8% of U.S. total petroleum imports and 9% of U.S. crude oil imports were from Persian Gulf countries in 2021.” Accidentally mangled the quote while cutting and pasting.
kalleboo 4y ago
Yeah we should quit doing that too, I don't think anyone but the political elite are in favor of being dependent on middle eastern countries
- senttoschool 4y ago
  Will you complain when inflation is 500% by quitting Middle East oil and China's manufacturing?
  - kalleboo 4y ago
    Why would slowly increasing renewables and EVs while diversifying and automating manufacturing cause 500% inflation?
  - peterfirefly 4y ago
    Fracking and nuclear are here-and-now options. Wind/solar/batteries are long-term options... especially with lots of HVDC. We are causing a lot of trouble by shoveling money at bad countries run by bad people -- the Ukraine war wouldn't have happened if large (and important) parts of Europe 1) hadn't bought so much Russian gas and 2) made itself so dependent on the ability to keep buying it. This provided Putin with 1) the ability to wage war and 2) the feeling, bordering on certainty, that it was safe to do so.
efitz 4y ago
If only there were a country in North America that had vast oil reserves, larger than Saudi Arabia’s, just there for the taking if politics and lawfare got out of the way…
- rnk 4y ago
  Do you mean the us or canada? The oil tar sands in Canada are supposed to be expensive to convert to usable petroleum, also use a lot of water, and are supposed to be worse for co2 production. The us has lots of oil, we can get it out if we need it, more frakking, etc. Mexico is happy to sell us all their oil.
  - efitz 4y ago
    I was talking about the US.
HlessClaudesman 4y ago
Classic whataboutism. There are many such issues worthy of attention, perhaps they are indeed being opined about... on other threads? The human mind functions better when focusing on a single problem at any given moment.

WillPostForFood 4y ago

yet somehow we leave them alone to openly torture, abuse and murder their citizens Huh, like maybe "a sizeable chunk of the world's oil and gas are sourced from "non-democratic" countries in the Middle East" is the problem, and the reason those countries get a pass? So like we shouldn't be outsourcing manufacturing, we shouldn't be outsourcing energy production to terrible countries.

Retric 4y ago
If by we you mean the US then we don’t. The US has effectively zero direct dependence on middle eastern oil due to domestic production and transportation costs. Canada is much closer and has a lot of oil. Where it matters is they can impact the global prices and thus what people pay at the pump. Though the actual profits from such spikes in American gas prices end up going to suppliers in America or Canada.
- teh_klev 4y ago
  > The US has effectively zero direct dependence on middle eastern oil due to domestic production and transportation costs For now and whilst those extraction costs are cheaper domestically. The US needs the Saudis as a backstop and for infill of the types of crude oils the North American continent doesn't have access to or is in limited supply. They're also a handy client state to do the US's dirty work in the Middle East, see Yemen for example. The US also needs the Saudi's and their non-democratic allies to keep buying weapon systems to prop up Lockheed, Boeing et al. You need to look at the bigger picture.
  - tw1984 4y ago
    > You need to look at the bigger picture. The big picture is that the US needs middle east countries to price their oil in USD. Everything else is just a bonus.
    - vkou 4y ago
      The world's USD-settled oil trade is a tiny fraction of overall USD-settled trade. The petrodollar is an interesting theory, but it doesn't really hold up to very much scrutiny.
      - somenameforme 4y ago
        Imagine you created a new currency in the US: FidoBucks. Not even a crypto but a regular currency you can print at your whim. Obviously nobody's really going to want your currency and it will have zero value. But now imagine, after some backdoor deals, you make it such that FidoBucks are literally the only currency accepted at gas stations. And not only that both those gas stations agree to spend any extra profits they make buying in FidoBuck denominated treasuries. Now not only are people going to want your currency, but they will literally need it. And since FidoBucks are now directly tied to access of a critical commodity, it will have also have a guaranteed minimum "value" that's tied to the cost of oil. So people can feel pretty comfortable holding and trading Fidobucks. In fact the new stability of your currency means you'd likely see people starting to trade it for far more than oil, to the point that gas becomes just a fraction of its trade. This is essentially what the petrodollar did, but it of course started from a far higher point than zero of course. Once we ended the fixed convertibility of the USD to gold in 1971 [1], demand in the dollar started rapidly declining, and its relative value began decreasing. After the petrodollar this all reversed, hard. It's to assign a specific value to any of these changes, because it's all dynamic - just like in our simplified FidoBucks example so much would depend on the dynamic scarcity of gas, how many FidoBucks you print, the total value of outside trade, and a million other variables. What is safe to say is that it dramatically strengthened the position of the currency, and is a large reason that until extremely recently, if China and Russia were trading - they'd settle that trade in USD. Now they're trying to create the next FidoBuck backed by a combination of land, gold, and other finite resources. [1] - https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/ https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
- WillPostForFood 4y ago
  We get ~12% of our oil from the middle east which is consequential but not what I meant. You'll note that after Biden called Saudi Arabia a Pariah state, he was forced to reverse course and head over, hat in hand, and beg for more production. Not because of the 12% (or 10% or 8%), we directly consume, but because of the impact on inflation and the world economy. So yes, we are beholden to middle east oil, not because we directly consume it, but because of the impact on energy prices and inflation. If we were maximizing our own energy production, not just for domestic consumption but for export, we could lessen that impact and the influence they have.
  - Retric 4y ago
    It’s 2.6% not 12%. https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-products/imports-and-exports.php https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-produc... “About 9% of U.S. total petroleum imports and 9% of U.S. crude oil imports were from Persian Gulf countries in 2021.” However the US produces 20 Billion barrels of oil vs 8 Billion barrels of imports. So that 9% is really 9% * (8B / (8B + 20B)) = 2.6% of the US’s total oil supply. Further that 8 Billion barrels of imports almost exactly equals our 8 Billion barrels of exports. There are many reasons to imports and export oil over the course of a year for example seasonal demand varies, but if it goes to 0 we can also stop our exports.
    - Retric 4y ago
      “About 8% of U.S. total petroleum imports and 9% of U.S. crude oil imports were from Persian Gulf countries in 2021.” Accidentally mangled the quote while cutting and pasting.

kalleboo 4y ago

Yeah we should quit doing that too, I don't think anyone but the political elite are in favor of being dependent on middle eastern countries

senttoschool 4y ago
Will you complain when inflation is 500% by quitting Middle East oil and China's manufacturing?
- kalleboo 4y ago
  Why would slowly increasing renewables and EVs while diversifying and automating manufacturing cause 500% inflation?
- peterfirefly 4y ago
  Fracking and nuclear are here-and-now options. Wind/solar/batteries are long-term options... especially with lots of HVDC. We are causing a lot of trouble by shoveling money at bad countries run by bad people -- the Ukraine war wouldn't have happened if large (and important) parts of Europe 1) hadn't bought so much Russian gas and 2) made itself so dependent on the ability to keep buying it. This provided Putin with 1) the ability to wage war and 2) the feeling, bordering on certainty, that it was safe to do so.

efitz 4y ago

If only there were a country in North America that had vast oil reserves, larger than Saudi Arabia’s, just there for the taking if politics and lawfare got out of the way…

rnk 4y ago
Do you mean the us or canada? The oil tar sands in Canada are supposed to be expensive to convert to usable petroleum, also use a lot of water, and are supposed to be worse for co2 production. The us has lots of oil, we can get it out if we need it, more frakking, etc. Mexico is happy to sell us all their oil.
- efitz 4y ago
  I was talking about the US.

HlessClaudesman 4y ago

Classic whataboutism. There are many such issues worthy of attention, perhaps they are indeed being opined about... on other threads? The human mind functions better when focusing on a single problem at any given moment.