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> Which features of our software are people using, and where do we need to concentrate the most with our limited resources and bandwidth to provide our users th

> Which features of our software are people using, and where do we need to concentrate the most with our limited resources and bandwidth to provide our users the best possible experience. The best possible experience starts with not being spied on, especially against my consent. No feature is worth that. > What are the biggest build- and run-time errors, and are they a result of the developer experience, and can we fix this through either better documentation or better error messaging. Make it easy to report bugs. This is a solved problem (c.f. any popular open source application). > What are the paths to successful adoption of our software, and can we nudge potential users (through documentation or developer outreach) to get on one of those paths. As a user, I never want to be "nudged". Ever. Do not "outreach" to me especially if you've made the decision to contact me by spying on my data. > We polled our users and they said that they want feature A, but our usage data shows that a vast majority of our users need feature B to be more successful faster. So your users told you what they wanted and you didn't give it to them and justified the decision based on analytics. This is where people say that analytics are good for the product manager's job in helping justify its existence but at the expense of the users. > Our software is used most often with other-tool-A. Can we strike up an agreement with the team that makes A, in order to give our users a better experience when integrating both tools through documentation, tighter API integrations, etc. Create great solutions. If that means doing biz dev or integrations to make that happen, go for it. You do not need to spy on your users to build meaningful partnerships.

mark242 4y ago
> The best possible experience starts with not being spied on, especially against my consent. No feature is worth that. This kind of knee-jerk reaction says that there is no comment in the universe that would make you entertain a different perspective. That's fine, that's not what this comment is going to be. Instead, I'll say this: the default assumption of ie "collecting crash data equates to invading my personal privacy" is just wildly off-base. I will freely admit that there are plenty of companies who have abused the concept of the always-on-network connection and are doing hardcore data-mining almost at the keylogger level. That's bad, 100%. But there is a large majority of data-driven companies who are actively trying to make your experience with their software better, with the small team that they have. To say "well f them, they can try to divine how I, Power Linux User, would even use their software" is reductive and puts an engineering team at a distinct disadvantage and slows their overall output. This is not what you, as a user of their software, want, and it is ultimately a self-defeating argument. "Create great solutions" does not happen in the year of our lord 2023 without data. That data needs to come from somewhere, and "make it easy to report bugs" isn't it.
- wootland 4y ago
  > there is no comment in the universe that would make you entertain a different perspective. You're correct in that there is no comment in the universe that would make me ok with being spied on. That's not a "knee-jerk reaction" though, it's privacy and consent 101. > "Create great solutions" does not happen in the year of our lord 2023 without data. It's true that there's a trend toward dark patterns and spying, which is exactly why we as users should resist and not allow it to be framed as the status quo. Great software has been created for decades, a lot of it still in use, without a hint of spyware or analytics.
- ricardobeat 4y ago
  I've lived in the data-driven mindset for many years, and ultimately found that it still consists of mostly guesswork, opinions and strong biases everywhere. People make product decisions and they will seek the data to validate what they already want [1] anyway. It should complement, not replace talking to users, and is not a requirement to build great products. When it comes to simple anonymized telemetry, one user or subset of users, spamming the same error over and over will skew your data, and unless you track them even more you won't be able to tell the difference. As I said earlier, it's a slippery slope to stand on. Comprehensive telemetry/tracking is fine for say, an e-commerce website or any kind of cloud application where you're already receiving all the user input anyway. It's also fine, with consent, for desktop apps, especially complex ones like IDEs etc. It is not OK for third-party software packages that you'll ship to your own users - regardless of any promise to not add tracking to the resulting build, since at this point they already broke that wall and it only takes one "well-intentioned" PM to make it happen. [1] a system that evolves automatically by running stochastic A/B tests is something many have dreamed up including myself. I'm really curious what that would end up looking like. That's being truly data-driven!
jcranmer 4y ago
> Make it easy to report bugs. This is a solved problem (c.f. any popular open source application). How can you make it easier to report a bug for the average user than providing a single button to the user that lets them upload a crash report after a crash?
- wootland 4y ago
  That seems like a fine way to do it. What we're talking about are apps that track you while you use them, not an opt-in one off bug report.
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  Oh, man. Don't call user-initiated data collection "telemetry". You are going to lose that battle for no good reason if you insist on associating with automatic collection.
  - cowl 4y ago
    The problem is not data-collection per se. optout data collection is the problem. if the user is informed and consents there is no problem at all.

mark242 4y ago

> The best possible experience starts with not being spied on, especially against my consent. No feature is worth that. This kind of knee-jerk reaction says that there is no comment in the universe that would make you entertain a different perspective. That's fine, that's not what this comment is going to be. Instead, I'll say this: the default assumption of ie "collecting crash data equates to invading my personal privacy" is just wildly off-base. I will freely admit that there are plenty of companies who have abused the concept of the always-on-network connection and are doing hardcore data-mining almost at the keylogger level. That's bad, 100%. But there is a large majority of data-driven companies who are actively trying to make your experience with their software better, with the small team that they have. To say "well f them, they can try to divine how I, Power Linux User, would even use their software" is reductive and puts an engineering team at a distinct disadvantage and slows their overall output. This is not what you, as a user of their software, want, and it is ultimately a self-defeating argument. "Create great solutions" does not happen in the year of our lord 2023 without data. That data needs to come from somewhere, and "make it easy to report bugs" isn't it.

wootland 4y ago
> there is no comment in the universe that would make you entertain a different perspective. You're correct in that there is no comment in the universe that would make me ok with being spied on. That's not a "knee-jerk reaction" though, it's privacy and consent 101. > "Create great solutions" does not happen in the year of our lord 2023 without data. It's true that there's a trend toward dark patterns and spying, which is exactly why we as users should resist and not allow it to be framed as the status quo. Great software has been created for decades, a lot of it still in use, without a hint of spyware or analytics.
ricardobeat 4y ago
I've lived in the data-driven mindset for many years, and ultimately found that it still consists of mostly guesswork, opinions and strong biases everywhere. People make product decisions and they will seek the data to validate what they already want [1] anyway. It should complement, not replace talking to users, and is not a requirement to build great products. When it comes to simple anonymized telemetry, one user or subset of users, spamming the same error over and over will skew your data, and unless you track them even more you won't be able to tell the difference. As I said earlier, it's a slippery slope to stand on. Comprehensive telemetry/tracking is fine for say, an e-commerce website or any kind of cloud application where you're already receiving all the user input anyway. It's also fine, with consent, for desktop apps, especially complex ones like IDEs etc. It is not OK for third-party software packages that you'll ship to your own users - regardless of any promise to not add tracking to the resulting build, since at this point they already broke that wall and it only takes one "well-intentioned" PM to make it happen. [1] a system that evolves automatically by running stochastic A/B tests is something many have dreamed up including myself. I'm really curious what that would end up looking like. That's being truly data-driven!

jcranmer 4y ago

> Make it easy to report bugs. This is a solved problem (c.f. any popular open source application). How can you make it easier to report a bug for the average user than providing a single button to the user that lets them upload a crash report after a crash?

wootland 4y ago
That seems like a fine way to do it. What we're talking about are apps that track you while you use them, not an opt-in one off bug report.
marcosdumay 4y ago
Oh, man. Don't call user-initiated data collection "telemetry". You are going to lose that battle for no good reason if you insist on associating with automatic collection.
- cowl 4y ago
  The problem is not data-collection per se. optout data collection is the problem. if the user is informed and consents there is no problem at all.