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Author seems a bit naive about international sovereignty, though I suppose one can't exactly blame him for it. I grew up in Vancouver, a stone's throw from the

Author seems a bit naive about international sovereignty, though I suppose one can't exactly blame him for it. I grew up in Vancouver, a stone's throw from the border, so I suppose I take it for granted that we all learn very early on that CBP is a wretched hive of scum and villainy, and everyone knows someone who was chewed out, berated, and generally treated like a criminal by them. Seeing as how I work in the US now, it's probably fortunate that I grew up with such a cynical view about crossing international borders. Anyways, let this be a lesson to Canadians (or I suppose more generally, all non-Americans) who want to cross the border for whatever reason: be prepared always for the worst. If you are crossing for business, always seek legal advice for your situation, and make sure all of your ducks are lined up in a row. You have no right to enter a country where you are not a citizen, regardless of what treaties and protocols your two nations have set up. I do have a question for the author though: what kind of training involves setting up a US corp? Also, regardless of how you classify it in your head, I'm fairly certain that setting up and working for a US corp, for profit or education or just plain fun, means you're working in the USA, and would be illegal without the relevant visas. Without knowing the specifics about his situation, it would seem to me that he was in fact trying to enter the US illegally - though he didn't seem to know this. Ignorance of the law won't help you very much when you're in a room with an irate CBP officer.

AgentConundrum 15y ago
> what kind of training involves setting up a US corp? Y Combinator. The company he mentions has a post on the front page right now mentioning "[their] Y Combinator experience". Calling it "business training" seems an overly simplistic description, but I don't think it's technically inaccurate. It's certainly the wrong thing to call it at the border.
- maaku 15y ago
  But there's absolutely no question that it involves working in America, and would require a business visa. I'm not sure how one could a) be smart enough to get into YC, and b) not realize that coming to SF for 3 months to work presumably as a C-level director for an American business requires a work visa. EDIT: And neither B1 nor B2 is the right visa, so CBP was right to send him home. The OP needed a working visa.
  - patio11 15y ago
    would require a business visa. Just to be precise here: it probably requires an employment visa, which is in a different category than business visas. You can come to the US and talk contracts with a company your company wants to do business with: that's (probably) B-1 (business). If you're doing work in the US, you need a work-capable visa. Some options would be TN-1 ("Hello Mr. Canadian professional"), L-1 (intracompany transferee), and J-1 (specialist). I have some accidental knowledge about this because I used to help finangle things for Japanese folks affiliated with an employer of mine, but if you have any doubt about this sort of stuff, get a lawyer. The very fact of having a lawyer makes it less likely you will get tripped up because they know how the game is played and they will provide consequential bits of advice like "Give anyone asking questions the minimum information required and refer them to the stack of official documents you will carry with you." (Bureaucracies are state machines: you give them the minimum information necessary to get the state transition you desire.) They will also to be able to give advice such as "Given your circumstances, one way we could hypothetically do things is X but the on-the-ground reality would be exactly the same as if we classified it as Y and Y is orders-of-magnitude easier to pass scrutiny for."
  - AgentConundrum 15y ago
    I didn't mean to imply it wouldn't require a business visa (or employment visa and/or status, per patio11). When I said calling it "business training" was technically accurate, I meant just that. YC technically helps train you to create and run a business, but it's only part of the equation. I certainly agree that he should have known better. How can you honestly say (or think) "I'm going to the states for a couple months to do business training, and yes those are documents to set up a US business, but no I'm not here on business."
    - pbhjpbhj 15y ago
      >How can you honestly say (or think) The author noted why - he said as he wasn't financially benefiting [or acting as an agent to procure direct financial benefit presumably] he assumed it didn't count as business. TBH that's the measure most people use for "is this a business thing". It could get quite tricky. For example part of what I do for money involves working with ceramics. I get inspiration in all sorts of places. If on a holiday to USA I happen to see a nice piece of ceramic art that inspires me then suddenly I've learnt something that benefits my business and one could argue it is in part a trip "for business". Perhaps that's too weak, but where's the cross-over ... if I go to visit a pottery? If I attend a seminar? If I go to a workshop [an event where one learns new techniques]? If I actively participate in a workshop? Is the problem that USA don't want to let people learn things in the USA and leave the country with that knowledge just in case they give away some commercial advantage?
- scott_s 15y ago
  I also hadn't realized he meant Y Combinator, because calling it "training" is hugely inaccurate. The goal of participants of Y Combinator is to start a business in the US. They don't setup the corporation on a lark, or as a "learning experience."
jhuckestein 15y ago
He is the founder of YC-funded upverter. At the time of the blog post they were still in stealth mode and didn't want to reveal this. A story about their YC experience is currently on the HN homepage
duopixel 15y ago
Yes to all of this. I always rehearse what I'm going to say entering any country legally. They will grind you to find inconsistencies and sometimes you just say honest mistakes that will take you to a second round of interrogation. For example: after a series of tough questions, the border was just about to stamp my passport, he held the stamp in the air and then asked "have you been in the US before"? And I flustered, because I said no, but I corrected myself because I had crossed the border at Niagara Falls for a day trip. I explained this to the agent which granted me an extra round of questioning. But I felt most offended when I went to Canada (I'm a Canadian citizen and I hadn't been there in years) and the agent asked me what was my reason for going to Canada. As if I needed an excuse.
- latch 15y ago
  You don't. Section 6 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms means that, as a Canadian citizen, you don't need to explain why you are travelling within, leaving or re-entering Canada. Not only that, but that section cannot be overwritten by the notwithstanding clause. You do have to provide a basic customs declaration though.
- gst 15y ago
  Regarding your last comment: Had the same experience in Europe. I'm Austrian citizen, but live in the US. During my last flight back to Austria (via Amsterdam), the border-agent in Amsterdam asked me quite in detail about why I'm entering the European Union. Wonder what would have happened if I had refused to answer.
  - trevi 15y ago
    From my experience, that seems to be the policy in Amsterdam. I am en EU citizen, but live in the Netherlands. If I fly to the US I can reliably expect lengthy and silly questions. Example: Agent: why did you come the Netherlands six years ago? Me: to study A: where's your student id? M: that was six years ago... A: any other proof you might have? and so on...
    - 15y ago
pyre 15y ago
I will add an anecdote here. I have crossed the US-Canada land border many times. I've only ever been 'chewed out' by Canadian Border Patrol once. I've had this happen multiple times from the US Border Patrol and I'm a US citizen. The Canadian Border Patrol has always been calm, patient and understanding in my experience. The US border patrol is hit-or-miss. Some people are nice (once I was only asked two questions, and wasn't even required to show my passport, back in ~2005), while others obviously have a chip on their shoulder and are just looking for someway to nail to the wall... no matter how small or insignificant.
- a_a_r_o_n 15y ago
  US citizen, I used to cross to Vancouver BC occasionally in the eighties. I loved going up, the CBP was always nice and welcoming. I hated coming back, the US guards were rude and terrible. Shameful.
  - mcrider 15y ago
    US border guards are primarily ex-military. Canadian border guards are often civilians (in fact, a good friend of mind worked at CBSA during summers between semesters at university). This lends a lot to the attitudes of the guards. That said, I've always had an easy time going through the border, and have rarely had more than a couple questions asked to me over the many many crossings (this may be because I have a student visa in my passport and I believe that answers most questions for the guards before they ask them). One tip in contrast from a post above -- Don't think too much about what you're going to say, because if they ask something else you won't be prepared. Imagine border guards are actually people and you're just having a conversation with them!
    - a_a_r_o_n 15y ago
      "US border guards are primarily ex-military." Ex-military, like everyone else in the world, are individuals. Being in the military doesn't turn you into an asshole, although it could amplify that tendency if you went in with it. Military and ex-military are not exotic aliens, they're us, nothing more and nothing less. I think it's more likely that poor treatment at the border is institutional.
neilrahilly 15y ago
This is one of those instances where it's useful to clearly separate descriptive arguments (the way things are) from normative arguments (the way things should be). I agree that the best strategy to deal with the border, as it is, is to expect and prepare for the worst. But I sympathize with the author that, in a better world, it wouldn't be this way.
vacri 15y ago
National Sovereignty = natural arseholes? Not necessarily. I have a friend who in the pre-Euro days only realised he had drunkenly stumbled over the Netherlands-Belgium border when he went into a fish'n'chip shop and thought 'wow, the prices are really high here'. My own experience with the US border guards was mixed. Inland in Texas, I met a guard who ruined my day at a checkpoint (though I wasn't in danger of being detained). But at the border at Nogales, the entry to Mexico is just a turnstile, and on the entry back to the US, the guard just waved me through with a bored look on his face, passport unexamined. I agree though that you have to be prepared, and you have to just shut up and play the game if they're being fractious.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- davidw 15y ago
  I rode my bike over the Italy/Austria border once (along the Drava river), and the only way you could tell was that the signs stopped being in Italian & German and were only in German
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
burgerbrain 15y ago
"You have no right to enter a country where you are not a citizen, regardless of what treaties and protocols your two nations have set up." I am a citizen, so I have a right to enter this country. Why is it that they harass me? I suspect they just like harassing everybody. Citizenship is barely involved.
- halostatue 15y ago
  I agree. I am a dual-citizen of Canada and the U.S., and I hate travelling to the U.S. because > 50% of my interactions with the U.S. border folks are suspicious of me because I'm a dual citizen. There is something wrong with a system that is set up to assume that people are lying to you when in reality they may be confused. IMO, better people training is required—but that requires spending money on soft-skill stuff that the U.S. doesn't want to spend on either CBP or TSA agents. The absolute single biggest problem with the way CBP works (especially for non-citizens) is that a CBP agent with a bad attitude can decide to reject your entry for no reason whatsoever and no right of appeal. (The second problem, at least at Toronto Pearson, is that some of these folks apparently hate working in Canada. If you hate it, get a fucking transfer. You're a guest in Canada, and it's a great place to live. Stop being a sourpuss because your bad attitude is making it worse for all of the people you interact with, and you're a representative for the U.S. Do you really want to give a negative impression of the U.S. based on your attitude?)
brusch 15y ago
As someone growing up at a border (1 mile from the Austrian / Swiss border) - I have to say that this is a whole different thing in Europe (between Switzerland / Austria / Germany for sure). Well you get checked for the stuff and if you are over the allowed quantities for the stuff you have with you - and you may have to show your ID but that's it. If you didn't do any wrong you have no problems. For me (and many families in my town) it was completely normal to shop in Switzerland, or go to the gym there. I've once switched the border every day just to use the swiss highway, cause my commute was shorter and faster this way. Reminder: Switzerland is not part of the EU (european union)
- JSGraef 15y ago
  Right, but they are still subscribed to many of the same rules, most specifically the "free movement of people" for which they are bound by EU law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland%E2%80%93European_Union_relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland%E2%80%93European_Un...
  - brusch 15y ago
    true - but most of that happened in my childhood, when Austria was partnot of the EU and Switzerland did'nt subscribe to these rules.
- CaptainZapp 15y ago
  Reminder: Switzerland is not part of the EU (european union) That's true, but Switzerland is certainly part of the Schengen treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement), which regulates border crossing throughout the participating countries (there is no formal border control, between those countries). Leaving from Zurich to most European destinations by plane I usually don't even need an id.
  - anghyflawn 15y ago
    Switzerland abolished border controls (and started issuing Schengen visas) only a few years ago (in 2008 if memory serves). Also, there may be no border control (=they don't check your entry permits if you're coming from a Schengen country), but customs isn't going anywhere.
rmc 15y ago
You have no right to enter a country where you are not a citizen, regardless of what treaties and protocols your two nations have set up. Well technically citizens of the EU have the right live & work anywhere else in the EU....
arethuza 15y ago
"You have no right to enter a country where you are not a citizen, regardless of what treaties and protocols your two nations have set up." According to the EU: "The first right of a European citizen is the right to travel, work and live anywhere in the Union." http://europa.eu/abc/12lessons/lesson_9/index_en.htm http://europa.eu/abc/12lessons/lesson_9/index_en.htm I guess that's because the member states of the EU have given up complete sovereignty through things like the Treaty of Maastricht.
toyg 15y ago
I'm really, really tired of the line "You have no right to X if Y". That's false; somebody might not recognise your rights, but that doesn't mean you don't have them. I personally believe everyone has a right to move across arbitrary lines written on some map by wealthy people in the past few centuries. I believe it is a natural right for every human being, as much as the right to participate in the organization of your community (e.g. voting), the right not to be unduly harassed without habeas corpus, the right to be treated with dignity etc etc. The fact that some specific law of some specific land recognises some rights and not others does not mean we should resign to the fact that this is how it ought to be. Otherwise, we might as well roll back to theocracy or some other rubbish way of life.
- RexRollman 15y ago
  "I personally believe everyone has a right to move across arbitrary lines written on some map by wealthy people in the past few centuries." That is false. Every country has the right to determine who can enter its borders.
  - zotz 15y ago
    > Every country has the right to determine who can enter its borders. Every government, legitimate or not, has the power to decree who may or may not enter the country. There's a huge difference between a power and a right.
- mahyarm 15y ago
  It comes down to that inside the internal rule system of a very powerful, hopefully consistent and ultimately violent organization known as government, they won't hold back in these border crossing situation vs how they would inside their borders.
radu_floricica 15y ago
> You have no right to enter a country where you are not a citizen, As an European, I'll be forgiven if I start to forget this. After all plenty of our traffic posts, some older then US, have been turned into cafes. We should watch this as hackers - and as hackers, this looks a lot like a process that's failing at its job. The point is not to make crossing the border an unpleasant experience (unless it is, and then it's doing a great job) but to do whatever it has to do as transparently as possibly. And regardless of other constraints, it can _at least_ do it politely. No matter how you look at it, somebody isn't doing his job here.

AgentConundrum 15y ago

> what kind of training involves setting up a US corp? Y Combinator. The company he mentions has a post on the front page right now mentioning "[their] Y Combinator experience". Calling it "business training" seems an overly simplistic description, but I don't think it's technically inaccurate. It's certainly the wrong thing to call it at the border.

maaku 15y ago
But there's absolutely no question that it involves working in America, and would require a business visa. I'm not sure how one could a) be smart enough to get into YC, and b) not realize that coming to SF for 3 months to work presumably as a C-level director for an American business requires a work visa. EDIT: And neither B1 nor B2 is the right visa, so CBP was right to send him home. The OP needed a working visa.
- patio11 15y ago
  would require a business visa. Just to be precise here: it probably requires an employment visa, which is in a different category than business visas. You can come to the US and talk contracts with a company your company wants to do business with: that's (probably) B-1 (business). If you're doing work in the US, you need a work-capable visa. Some options would be TN-1 ("Hello Mr. Canadian professional"), L-1 (intracompany transferee), and J-1 (specialist). I have some accidental knowledge about this because I used to help finangle things for Japanese folks affiliated with an employer of mine, but if you have any doubt about this sort of stuff, get a lawyer. The very fact of having a lawyer makes it less likely you will get tripped up because they know how the game is played and they will provide consequential bits of advice like "Give anyone asking questions the minimum information required and refer them to the stack of official documents you will carry with you." (Bureaucracies are state machines: you give them the minimum information necessary to get the state transition you desire.) They will also to be able to give advice such as "Given your circumstances, one way we could hypothetically do things is X but the on-the-ground reality would be exactly the same as if we classified it as Y and Y is orders-of-magnitude easier to pass scrutiny for."
- AgentConundrum 15y ago
  I didn't mean to imply it wouldn't require a business visa (or employment visa and/or status, per patio11). When I said calling it "business training" was technically accurate, I meant just that. YC technically helps train you to create and run a business, but it's only part of the equation. I certainly agree that he should have known better. How can you honestly say (or think) "I'm going to the states for a couple months to do business training, and yes those are documents to set up a US business, but no I'm not here on business."
  - pbhjpbhj 15y ago
    >How can you honestly say (or think) The author noted why - he said as he wasn't financially benefiting [or acting as an agent to procure direct financial benefit presumably] he assumed it didn't count as business. TBH that's the measure most people use for "is this a business thing". It could get quite tricky. For example part of what I do for money involves working with ceramics. I get inspiration in all sorts of places. If on a holiday to USA I happen to see a nice piece of ceramic art that inspires me then suddenly I've learnt something that benefits my business and one could argue it is in part a trip "for business". Perhaps that's too weak, but where's the cross-over ... if I go to visit a pottery? If I attend a seminar? If I go to a workshop [an event where one learns new techniques]? If I actively participate in a workshop? Is the problem that USA don't want to let people learn things in the USA and leave the country with that knowledge just in case they give away some commercial advantage?
scott_s 15y ago
I also hadn't realized he meant Y Combinator, because calling it "training" is hugely inaccurate. The goal of participants of Y Combinator is to start a business in the US. They don't setup the corporation on a lark, or as a "learning experience."

jhuckestein 15y ago

He is the founder of YC-funded upverter. At the time of the blog post they were still in stealth mode and didn't want to reveal this. A story about their YC experience is currently on the HN homepage

duopixel 15y ago

Yes to all of this. I always rehearse what I'm going to say entering any country legally. They will grind you to find inconsistencies and sometimes you just say honest mistakes that will take you to a second round of interrogation. For example: after a series of tough questions, the border was just about to stamp my passport, he held the stamp in the air and then asked "have you been in the US before"? And I flustered, because I said no, but I corrected myself because I had crossed the border at Niagara Falls for a day trip. I explained this to the agent which granted me an extra round of questioning. But I felt most offended when I went to Canada (I'm a Canadian citizen and I hadn't been there in years) and the agent asked me what was my reason for going to Canada. As if I needed an excuse.

latch 15y ago
You don't. Section 6 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms means that, as a Canadian citizen, you don't need to explain why you are travelling within, leaving or re-entering Canada. Not only that, but that section cannot be overwritten by the notwithstanding clause. You do have to provide a basic customs declaration though.
gst 15y ago
Regarding your last comment: Had the same experience in Europe. I'm Austrian citizen, but live in the US. During my last flight back to Austria (via Amsterdam), the border-agent in Amsterdam asked me quite in detail about why I'm entering the European Union. Wonder what would have happened if I had refused to answer.
- trevi 15y ago
  From my experience, that seems to be the policy in Amsterdam. I am en EU citizen, but live in the Netherlands. If I fly to the US I can reliably expect lengthy and silly questions. Example: Agent: why did you come the Netherlands six years ago? Me: to study A: where's your student id? M: that was six years ago... A: any other proof you might have? and so on...
  - 15y ago

pyre 15y ago

I will add an anecdote here. I have crossed the US-Canada land border many times. I've only ever been 'chewed out' by Canadian Border Patrol once. I've had this happen multiple times from the US Border Patrol and I'm a US citizen. The Canadian Border Patrol has always been calm, patient and understanding in my experience. The US border patrol is hit-or-miss. Some people are nice (once I was only asked two questions, and wasn't even required to show my passport, back in ~2005), while others obviously have a chip on their shoulder and are just looking for someway to nail to the wall... no matter how small or insignificant.

a_a_r_o_n 15y ago
US citizen, I used to cross to Vancouver BC occasionally in the eighties. I loved going up, the CBP was always nice and welcoming. I hated coming back, the US guards were rude and terrible. Shameful.
- mcrider 15y ago
  US border guards are primarily ex-military. Canadian border guards are often civilians (in fact, a good friend of mind worked at CBSA during summers between semesters at university). This lends a lot to the attitudes of the guards. That said, I've always had an easy time going through the border, and have rarely had more than a couple questions asked to me over the many many crossings (this may be because I have a student visa in my passport and I believe that answers most questions for the guards before they ask them). One tip in contrast from a post above -- Don't think too much about what you're going to say, because if they ask something else you won't be prepared. Imagine border guards are actually people and you're just having a conversation with them!
  - a_a_r_o_n 15y ago
    "US border guards are primarily ex-military." Ex-military, like everyone else in the world, are individuals. Being in the military doesn't turn you into an asshole, although it could amplify that tendency if you went in with it. Military and ex-military are not exotic aliens, they're us, nothing more and nothing less. I think it's more likely that poor treatment at the border is institutional.

neilrahilly 15y ago

This is one of those instances where it's useful to clearly separate descriptive arguments (the way things are) from normative arguments (the way things should be). I agree that the best strategy to deal with the border, as it is, is to expect and prepare for the worst. But I sympathize with the author that, in a better world, it wouldn't be this way.

vacri 15y ago

National Sovereignty = natural arseholes? Not necessarily. I have a friend who in the pre-Euro days only realised he had drunkenly stumbled over the Netherlands-Belgium border when he went into a fish'n'chip shop and thought 'wow, the prices are really high here'. My own experience with the US border guards was mixed. Inland in Texas, I met a guard who ruined my day at a checkpoint (though I wasn't in danger of being detained). But at the border at Nogales, the entry to Mexico is just a turnstile, and on the entry back to the US, the guard just waved me through with a bored look on his face, passport unexamined. I agree though that you have to be prepared, and you have to just shut up and play the game if they're being fractious.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
davidw 15y ago
I rode my bike over the Italy/Austria border once (along the Drava river), and the only way you could tell was that the signs stopped being in Italian & German and were only in German

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

burgerbrain 15y ago

"You have no right to enter a country where you are not a citizen, regardless of what treaties and protocols your two nations have set up." I am a citizen, so I have a right to enter this country. Why is it that they harass me? I suspect they just like harassing everybody. Citizenship is barely involved.

halostatue 15y ago
I agree. I am a dual-citizen of Canada and the U.S., and I hate travelling to the U.S. because > 50% of my interactions with the U.S. border folks are suspicious of me because I'm a dual citizen. There is something wrong with a system that is set up to assume that people are lying to you when in reality they may be confused. IMO, better people training is required—but that requires spending money on soft-skill stuff that the U.S. doesn't want to spend on either CBP or TSA agents. The absolute single biggest problem with the way CBP works (especially for non-citizens) is that a CBP agent with a bad attitude can decide to reject your entry for no reason whatsoever and no right of appeal. (The second problem, at least at Toronto Pearson, is that some of these folks apparently hate working in Canada. If you hate it, get a fucking transfer. You're a guest in Canada, and it's a great place to live. Stop being a sourpuss because your bad attitude is making it worse for all of the people you interact with, and you're a representative for the U.S. Do you really want to give a negative impression of the U.S. based on your attitude?)

brusch 15y ago

As someone growing up at a border (1 mile from the Austrian / Swiss border) - I have to say that this is a whole different thing in Europe (between Switzerland / Austria / Germany for sure). Well you get checked for the stuff and if you are over the allowed quantities for the stuff you have with you - and you may have to show your ID but that's it. If you didn't do any wrong you have no problems. For me (and many families in my town) it was completely normal to shop in Switzerland, or go to the gym there. I've once switched the border every day just to use the swiss highway, cause my commute was shorter and faster this way. Reminder: Switzerland is not part of the EU (european union)

JSGraef 15y ago
Right, but they are still subscribed to many of the same rules, most specifically the "free movement of people" for which they are bound by EU law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland%E2%80%93European_Union_relations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland%E2%80%93European_Un...
- brusch 15y ago
  true - but most of that happened in my childhood, when Austria was partnot of the EU and Switzerland did'nt subscribe to these rules.
CaptainZapp 15y ago
Reminder: Switzerland is not part of the EU (european union) That's true, but Switzerland is certainly part of the Schengen treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Agreement), which regulates border crossing throughout the participating countries (there is no formal border control, between those countries). Leaving from Zurich to most European destinations by plane I usually don't even need an id.
- anghyflawn 15y ago
  Switzerland abolished border controls (and started issuing Schengen visas) only a few years ago (in 2008 if memory serves). Also, there may be no border control (=they don't check your entry permits if you're coming from a Schengen country), but customs isn't going anywhere.

rmc 15y ago

You have no right to enter a country where you are not a citizen, regardless of what treaties and protocols your two nations have set up. Well technically citizens of the EU have the right live & work anywhere else in the EU....

arethuza 15y ago

"You have no right to enter a country where you are not a citizen, regardless of what treaties and protocols your two nations have set up." According to the EU: "The first right of a European citizen is the right to travel, work and live anywhere in the Union." http://europa.eu/abc/12lessons/lesson_9/index_en.htm http://europa.eu/abc/12lessons/lesson_9/index_en.htm I guess that's because the member states of the EU have given up complete sovereignty through things like the Treaty of Maastricht.

toyg 15y ago

I'm really, really tired of the line "You have no right to X if Y". That's false; somebody might not recognise your rights, but that doesn't mean you don't have them. I personally believe everyone has a right to move across arbitrary lines written on some map by wealthy people in the past few centuries. I believe it is a natural right for every human being, as much as the right to participate in the organization of your community (e.g. voting), the right not to be unduly harassed without habeas corpus, the right to be treated with dignity etc etc. The fact that some specific law of some specific land recognises some rights and not others does not mean we should resign to the fact that this is how it ought to be. Otherwise, we might as well roll back to theocracy or some other rubbish way of life.

RexRollman 15y ago
"I personally believe everyone has a right to move across arbitrary lines written on some map by wealthy people in the past few centuries." That is false. Every country has the right to determine who can enter its borders.
- zotz 15y ago
  > Every country has the right to determine who can enter its borders. Every government, legitimate or not, has the power to decree who may or may not enter the country. There's a huge difference between a power and a right.
mahyarm 15y ago
It comes down to that inside the internal rule system of a very powerful, hopefully consistent and ultimately violent organization known as government, they won't hold back in these border crossing situation vs how they would inside their borders.

radu_floricica 15y ago

> You have no right to enter a country where you are not a citizen, As an European, I'll be forgiven if I start to forget this. After all plenty of our traffic posts, some older then US, have been turned into cafes. We should watch this as hackers - and as hackers, this looks a lot like a process that's failing at its job. The point is not to make crossing the border an unpleasant experience (unless it is, and then it's doing a great job) but to do whatever it has to do as transparently as possibly. And regardless of other constraints, it can _at least_ do it politely. No matter how you look at it, somebody isn't doing his job here.