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I have commented on SF threads before regarding the violent crime. I don't think we have figured out if this was premeditated or not, but either way, SF is bec
by joemazerino 4y ago
I have commented on SF threads before regarding the violent crime.
I don't think we have figured out if this was premeditated or not, but either way, SF is becoming incredibly dangerous. Progressive DA's and a neutered police force are to blame for the rise in violent crime.
Many of my friends have taken their remote gigs and left SF in the last 3 years. What's the point in rolling the dice every time you walk outside for some air and to potentially catch an attack or worse? I can't blame them at all for the move.
- short_sells_poo 4y ago[flagged]
- drummojg 4y agoI love this debate and I expect it will go on forever. It boils down to, A: "California's problems are because California is too California!" "B: Nooo, we have not yet begun to California! If we California harder we can solve all the problems!" Submitted with humor and best regards.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- CrackerNews 4y agoCalifornia would be "I got mine, but we can make things more fair for you by lowering your standards and giving you measly benefits so the feudal stratification is okay."
- HPsquared 4y agoPeople are free to leave but it's hard to move in. That's pretty much the opposite of feudal. EDIT: Also no-competes are illegal in CA. Also very anti-feudal. Where's all this feudalism?
- nervousvarun 4y agoTo add to that...there are a not-insignificant volume of people escaping California, which leaves more of those who are ULTRA-California. So you're concentrating the California of California as well.
- brookst 4y agoSeems to be true everywhere. Florida is certainly selecting for Christian nationalists, for instance.
- nervousvarun 4y agoAgreed. It's not a uniquely California phenomenon the US is obviously becoming increasingly divided politically.
- moduspol 4y agoIMO this is what has been happening in virtually all US cities. The people that stay in them are increasingly in agreement with themselves politically simply because the others leave.
- dpflan 4y agoI thought Benioff was solving the homelessness problem... /s But yes, agreed, societal support for others has been strategically dismantled (federal and state-level) and abuses the marketing of the "American Dream" as mechanism for allowed greed and selfishness.
- yabones 4y agoI love the line of thinking that police can "prevent" or "stop" crime as anything other than a deterrent. One of the "lies to children" we repeat over and over. Policing is entirely reactive, responding and arriving long after the crime has taken place. The solution is never adding beat cops, it's fixing the underlying issues in society.
- TjZkxkxeky 4y agoIf you arrest and incarcerate a criminal, more criminals will spring from the ether. Past performance is not indicative of future performance.
- trentnix 4y agoTo say this you have to pretend as if there is no history of cities successfully deterring and dealing with crime via law enforcement.
- Entinel 4y agoShow me a city that has high income inequality but also low crime because of law enforcement.
- Kranar 4y agoSingapore
- almost_usual 4y agoNow try the US
- trentnix 4y agoThe largest cities in the US are politically in sync and have been for decades. It’s no surprise there’s not much diversity of outcome when everyone is calling the same plays from the same playbook.
- BobbyJo 4y agoSo SF is dangerous because it's so rich? Or because the US is poor? I don't really follow the logic here. The wealth disparity in SF is huge and definitely part of the issue, but it's mostly created by very local problems, like allowing sidewalks to be campgrounds while housing goes insane.
- short_sells_poo 4y agoNo. I'm arguing that systemic rise of crime is generally a symptom. Sure, you can repress the symptom (temporarily and at large cost) by heavily policing. But IMO it's much better to treat the root cause of the issue, which is that for a very large and growing part of the society in US, there's no future. The reason I bring wealth into the equation is because out of all the places in the US, SF and California has enough wealth to be able to afford to do well in this respect.
- BobbyJo 4y ago> there's no future. That's a problem of perception much more than fact, a perception that's created by people pushing it baselessly. Wealth inequality is real and a problem, but the "there is no future" garbage is ridiculous. Big blips in household income and prices happen every few decades. It's not the end of the world. Most people aren't low income or in poverty because "there is no future". It's because they're injured, addicted, handicapped, or just made a few bad calls. Most crimes are passion or survival, not "there is no future". As much as crime shot up during COVID, it's still down from when your parents were your age.
- JetSpiegel 4y ago> It's not the end of the world. It is if you are suddenly homeless due to those blips.
- chitowneats 4y agoMy God you people are so fucking stupid
- dang 4y agoWe've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines and ignoring our requests to stop. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- dilap 4y agoIt's not the miserable plebs being kept in check, it's just isolating the small minority of the criminally violent. SF is terrible for the plebs, because basic safe and sanitary conditions are no longer accessible without great wealth.
- leot 4y agoSF is rich and unequal. So are dozens of places. Yet I don't know of any other major urban area in a developed country that has the kind of crime we see here. Yes, let's create great safety nets. As a city with a $9 billion budget (for just 800,000 people; that's $11k for every person living here) they can afford better safety nets than anywhere. So if it's not the inequality, and it's not lack of funding, what's the cause of all the crime and homelessness? Here are a few examples of how dysfunctional SF politics is: [1] Chris Sacca tried to give SF free wifi 15 years ago, and they wouldn't accept it. https://www.reddit.com/r/sanfrancisco/comments/mf1x52/chris_sacca_tried_to_bring_free_internet_to_sf_15/ https://www.reddit.com/r/sanfrancisco/comments/mf1x52/chris_... [2] During covid, the SF school board decided one of their highest priorities would be to spend 10s of millions to rename their schools https://www.npr.org/2021/04/07/984919925/san-francisco-school-board-rescinds-controversial-school-renaming-plan https://www.npr.org/2021/04/07/984919925/san-francisco-schoo... [3] Because they claimed the law disproportionately impacted people of color, SF made all shoplifting of goods valued less than $950 a misdemeanor. https://www.hoover.org/research/why-shoplifting-now-de-facto-legal-california https://www.hoover.org/research/why-shoplifting-now-de-facto... So maybe — just maybe — it's not the insane inequality. It's utterly horrible governance.
- madsbuch 4y ago> SF is rich and unequal. So are dozens of places. Out of curiosity: Can you provide some cities with similar equivalence and violence?
- mind-blight 4y agoUnfortunately, Portland is one. Been living here for the past 6 years and I've watched the city rapidly fall apart in the last couple of years. We've had the most violent years on record. Homelessness has skyrocketed. I can't say that this is directly caused by reduced police budget (there are a ton of factors), but I can confidently say the city is horribly managed. The most recent example is the city government's proposal to force homeless folks into designated camps that would cost a minimum of $4k per tent (this number comes from the city's own report). That's more than what many Portlanders live on, and they'd still be living in tents.
- cynicalsecurity 4y agoWait, are you blaming victims for provoking those crimes?
- mb9000 4y agoSo the real victim here is the murderer?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- kvathupo 4y agoI'd argue it's well-known that income inequality is an existential threat to America. That said, I'd also argue that people _do_ care, but the SF government bureaucracy has proven woefully inept at efficiently solving housing [1] and homelessness [2]. [1] - https://www.businessinsider.com/why-housing-is-so-expensive-in-san-francisco-2014-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/why-housing-is-so-expensive-... [2] - https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/S-F-officials-want-15-million-for-tent-sites-16269998.php#photo-20702792 https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/S-F-officials-w...
- Gareth321 4y agoThis doesn't track. San Francisco has arguably the most generous social safety nets in the entire country. The city is spending upwards of $100k per homeless person. (https://www.hoover.org/research/only-san-francisco-61000-tents-and-350000-public-toilets#:~:text=San%20Francisco%20estimates%20about%208%2C000,problem%20weren't%20so%20tragic https://www.hoover.org/research/only-san-francisco-61000-ten....) The more San Fran spends on social services, the worse their crime becomes. I don't think this has anything to do with social safety nets or disenfranchisement.
- short_sells_poo 4y agoJust because you spend a lot of money, it doesn't mean you are doing something well. I could spend $10 million to have my front door changed, does that automatically mean I now have good security?
- Gareth321 4y agoThat's a fair argument. Current policies are clearly not working. What do think San Francisco could learn from much safer cities like Carmel, Meridian, Provo, Sugar Land, McAllen, and Pearland?
- christkv 4y agoThey are spending 100k per homeless person but probably cents actually reach the end person after every grifter in between have had their cut.
- softjobs 4y agoI think it's even worse than that: that whole system is benefitting from the situation, so has no incentive to actually do anything meaningful about the problem, just to pretend that they are. It's a variation on the Iron Law of Institutions.
- DrThunder 4y agoRight.... so, then why have progressive policies piled on top of progressive policies for DECADES in SF only served to turn it into a feces/needle ridden homeless encampment??? Not to worry though, because the SF government is now pushing $5 million reparation payouts and $1 housing for "black residents". According to you, this should fix everything right?
- korroziya 4y agoThere's plenty of inequality in Houston but you run the risk of getting shot if you try to mug someone. Food for thought.
- fortran77 4y agoInsane inequality justifies stabbing people to death. That's a great take.
- short_sells_poo 4y agoPlease tell me where I said any of this justifies murder? Oh right - that won't allow you to post empty strawman responses. How about we allow for some good faith between each other?
- tdehnel 4y agoEvery year there's some new tax on the ballot to fix these problems. Every year they get worse. We pay more money here in SF, and the problems get worse. Genuinely asking: How do you solve societal issues? Because we know for sure how to solve quality of life issues: See NYC in the 80s - More police enforcement and state prosecution.
- fluidcruft 4y agoHave deaths as a result of police violence decreased?
- HL33tibCe7 4y agoDeaths from “police violence” are extremely uncommon - when they do happen, it is plastered all over the newspapers for months.
- chitowneats 4y agoNot necessarily. Depends on the race of the victim. Nobody gave a flying fuck about Tony Timpa.
- diebeforei485 4y agoI love how people turn to examples from a thousand miles away when talking about policing in SF.
- bart_spoon 4y agoMinneapolis is 2,038 miles away from San Francisco. Would you say that George Floyd’s death had an effect of any kind on policing in SF?
- chitowneats 4y agoZero self-awareness. Incredible.
- chitowneats 4y agoLMFAO did you even read your own comment?????? Tell me more about local hero George Floyd. Absolute retardation.
- cdolan 4y agoIs the logical conclusion to this line of thought that any fewer deaths from police violence justifies a metropolitan area falling into socio-economic collapse?
- fredgrott 4y agowhen you can factually compare it to Bakersfield(higher crime rate and less inequality) then maybe your conclusion changes to something of more value.
- korroziya 4y ago[flagged]
- galleywest200 4y agoThere is no need for these types of arguments on this site. Please just downvote and move on.
- jeffbee 4y ago> neutered police force The police are on strike and that's all there is to it. They haven't been "neutered". SF has an average number of sworn personnel for cities of its size, 23 per 10k residents. No city has figured out how to attack the problem of police productivity, except arguably Camden NJ.
- mrzimmerman 4y agoI’m guessing it’s a thinly veiled reference to the fictional idea that if you steal less then $1,000 worth of valuables in CA you won’t be prosecuted. It’s constantly brought up by people like Charlie Kirk (who tweeted it as early as three days ago.) For the record, that isn’t true, it’s where they set the threshold for a crime being treated as a high class of misdemeanor or felony (I can’t remember which) and how stiff the sentence is. I live in AZ and our dollar amount threshold for the same types of crime are actually higher than California’s but no one tries to say that you can “walk out of a CVS with $X and there’s no penalty” because some people are just looking to tear down CA, not actually discuss policy and it’s impacts.
- diebeforei485 4y agoThe difference is where you live in Arizona, misdemeanors will actually be prosecuted. In most of CA misdemeanors are ignored, because of other laws and practices. So yes, it really does mean you can walk out with $950 and literally nothing will happen to you - unless you do it in front of a police officer or something. This is why Apple stores here pay police officers to hang out at the entrance.
- jeffbee 4y agoIs this based on anything? According to FBI data cities in AZ have atrocious clearance rates for larceny, same as anywhere else.
- diebeforei485 4y agoThe problem with clearance rates is that the denominator relies on larceny being reported. They don't get reported in SF. They do everywhere else. Percentages can make anything look good.
- tootie 4y agoObviously we have no idea about motive or the situation, but I think it's at least ironic that this guy helped start up CashApp which was recently exposed as being a platform heavily utilized by criminals with their tacit consent.
- jutrewag 4y agoIt’s really simple and I don’t understand why progressives can’t grasp this. You need to snuff out crime. There’s a reasonable way to do it without swinging across to either extreme. If the police force won’t cooperate, clean house and hire again. It’s a relatively low skilled job that is easy to hire for. Get the homeless off the street, snuff out petty crime or you’re basically dooming the progressive mandate as something unworkable.
- ketzo 4y ago“Police are easy to hire” Then why is the PD of every single major American city dramatically understaffed?
- diebeforei485 4y agoBecause cities have had high increases in living costs and haven't increased police salaries to match, making suburban and rural policing jobs more attractive.
- femiagbabiaka 4y agoThis problem has been getting solved with overtime pay for more than a decade. Sergeants in notoriously corrupt and terrible Oakland PD make upwards of 500k/yr.
- diebeforei485 4y agoOvertime pay is not a solution, because the overtime is largely going to protect specific stores like Apple Stores and not patrolling the streets.
- femiagbabiaka 4y agoI agree. Why would you think that anything different would happen if base pay was increased?
- deleted 4y ago
- brookst 4y agoIt’s of questionable taste to use someone’s death to advance your politics when the facts are known and can be fairly used as evidence that your tribe is right about something. It’s in poor taste indeed to acknowledge that you don’t know the facts of a murder, and to still insist that the killing supports your politics.
- thealchemistdev 4y agoIt's in poor taste to establish yourself as an authority to someone else on the internet. Do you think it would have been better to ask a few questions before resorting to shame as a tactic to change someone's behavior? (See what I did there?)
- chitowneats 4y ago[flagged]
- TylerE 4y agoHigh-profile crypto entrepreneurs are are not exactly random targets. Could it be random? Sure.
- vuln 4y agoRight. “Just part & parcel of living in a _big city_.” https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3801018/Terror-attacks-parcel-living-big-city-claims-London-mayor-Sadiq-Khan.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3801018/Terror-atta...
- TylerE 4y agoStatistically, most crimes occur in big cities because that's where the people are. My town of 80k, which feels perfectly safe 99% of the time, has had >2x the per capita murder rate of NYC, and has for years.
- catiopatio 4y ago
- JeremyNT 4y ago> I don't think we have figured out if this was premeditated or not, but either way, SF is becoming incredibly dangerous. Jesus, the bubble the typical HN SV commenter must live in. I'm sure it's frustrating to see crime rates increase, but "incredibly dangerous?" SF still has far less crime per capita than many of its peer cities. Where are all the displaced SV millionaires moving with dramatically lower crime rates where these people actually feel safe?
- fortran77 4y agoYour denial of plain facts is what’s “incredibly dangerous”
- hartard 4y agoCan you provide data that supports your opinion that violent crime per capita is higher?
- groby_b 4y agoEverybody on this thread so far has provided anecdotes and opinions. There's nary a fact in sight. So, let's go with at least one fact site: https://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-San-Francisco-California.html https://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-San-Francisco-Californ... At least based on that data set (and it's easy to find disagreeing data sets), murders are actually below average. But the problem is: There isn't a definitive data source. The FBIs UCR[1] is closest, but because they split by agency, it's hard to find relevant geographic data. For SF, you're looking at BART Alamenda, BART Contra Costa, SF County Highway Patrol, BART SF, SF Sheriff's office, SFPD, SF State University,Union Pacific Railroad, UCLA SF, San Mateo BART, South SF PD, Santa Clara BART. (If the US stopped encouraging everybody to play cops and robbers on their own, that'd be nice) But even if you settle for one of them, data is only reported up to 2021, and that means graphs stop at 2020. It's almost as if there was profit in making current crime a matter of opinion instead of facts.But for the data set? Violent crime is down. Fine, let's ask sfgov.org then: https://sfgov.org/scorecards/public-safety/violent-crime-rate-and-property-crime-rate https://sfgov.org/scorecards/public-safety/violent-crime-rat... Turns out, homicide is pretty much stable over the last decade. Same for aggravated assault.Rape is down to 2010 levels again. Robbery is down. None of the numbers are significantly up. This might be more dangerous than other cities, but it's at current levels for a long while now. [1] https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/explorer/crime/crime-trend https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/explorer/crim...
- mort96 4y ago> SF is becoming incredibly dangerous. Source? > Progressive DA's and a neutered police force are to blame for the rise in violent crime. Source? ... Disappointed to see this purely emotional appeal to partisan politics as the top comment. Bring statistics next time, show that the city is actually more dangerous than other big cities (especially conservative big cities), and show that policy changes are to blame. Don't use HN as a dumping ground for your political opinions. EDIT: Wow, I seem to have struck a nerve. To those of you who downvote my comment: I'm not saying what my parent comment claims is incorrect (though I have my doubts). I'm saying it's just a set of unsubstantiated opinions. Maybe those opinions reflect reality, but if they do, you should be able to show that using statistics. If this offends you, maybe consider whether your own stance on the issue is based in reality or if it's a result of emotional appeals such as my parent comment.
- clsec 4y ago>Progressive DA's and a neutered police force are to blame for the rise in violent Interesting that you say this after our progressive DA was recalled & our mayor is trying to supplement the SFPD budget by $27.6M. Also interesting, I have lived in SF since 1972 and only been mugged once, in my 1st yr there (I was 7 & mugged by kids across the street in the projects for my Mickey M watch and about $0.50). I will freely and safely walk anywhere in the City at any time of day or night. And I'm an older guy.. This ongoing discourse is tiring.
- chitowneats 4y agoGovernments and the polities they govern are like container ships. It takes a long time to change course even after the decision is made. Sadly, in SF, the damage has already been done and it won't be undone by recalling a single DA or merely proposing to fund public safety. Nice anecdote. Have you heard the one about the tech CTO that got stabbed to death? We have data about this too and it's very much trending in the wrong direction. If you're tired of arguing with people who are begging you to care about their lives, you can always just remain silent.
- tlogan 4y agoGood for you. But I do not feel safe at all. What do your kids and grandkids say about SF? Maybe that is generational - I’m in 50s.
- ukd1 4y agoHaving lived in SF for over 10 years (and never been mugged) there are multiple areas that are subjectively and objectively unsafe. I hope you continue to be so lucky.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- bsuvc 4y ago> I will freely and safely walk anywhere in the City at any time of day or night. Please don't. This is not safe, even if you have managed not to be a victim so far.
- 4y ago
- ren_engineer 4y agoI work remote and hearing some of my coworkers try to defend SF is like hearing a battered woman defend their abusive husband, "it's not that bad really, you just need to do X, if you get robbed you probably deserved it for Y" boggles my mind that people can rationalize things like not being able to leave bags in their car or they'll get their windows smashed and their stuff stolen. People in other places don't have to live like that
- laweijfmvo 4y agoName a city in the US where you can objectively feel safe at any time and any part? I’ve never been to such a place. Outside the US, maybe.
- tootie 4y agoSafety is not synonymous with crime. Certainly not random street crime. I've lived in NYC for 25 years and never really felt threatened. You just need to keep your head up and look both ways before crossing the street. I let my kids walk themselves through downtown Brooklyn and don't really worry. The fact they are rarely riding in a car is huge bonus for safety.
- babarock 4y ago> not being able to leave bags in their car The bar is leaving your stuff in your car, not feeling safe everywhere all the time.
- systemvoltage 4y agoSioux Falls, South Dakota. 10th fastest growing city in America. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jDdyDBdJZg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jDdyDBdJZg Don't worry, we'll destroy what little is left of this great nation.
- throwaway292939 4y agoWhy do you have to be so short-sighted and only think in the US? You can reform and adopt working policies here too.
- yadaeno 4y agoWe need a fund the police movement in SF desperately. When my bike was stolen last month the officer on the phone said they were something like 400 officers understaffed.
- pauldenton 4y agoI wonder what city is the best for solving bike theft crimes
- yadaeno 4y agoAny city willing to enforce laws and punish thieves is a candidate.
- TurkishPoptart 4y ago[flagged]
- __jem 4y agoLove to see clear anti-semitic dog whistling going on on HN.
- TurkishPoptart 4y agoPlease engage in good faith here. It is objectively true that Mr. Soros, via NGOs, funds these DAs. It is also true that CNN/MSNBC/NPR/NYT/WaPo and most "blue" media don't report on this, but I don't know why that's the case (though I suspect that he also funds them to keep his name out of the headlines because national journalism is mostly broken these days). It is absurd to conflate any criticism of a person's actions to a "dog whistle". I say this as an observant Jew who is excited for the first night of Passover and attending a seder tonight with one of the local Chabads. Is it still an anti-semitic dog whistling if I try to shed light on the misdeeds of one of our own? But regardless of my identity/religion, it shouldn't be off-the-table to discuss an individual's public behavior on our politics. I don't know what your real motives are, but it's simply anti-intellectual to try to shut down discussion with this nonsense. And so, by the non-logic of this nonsense, can I criticise George Bush, or is that an anti-white dog-whistle?
- huhhii77 4y ago[flagged]
- TurkishPoptart 4y agoWhat's worse is that this is a common way of halting discussion due to political correctness gone amuck. Also, improper use of dog-whistling.
- arpowers 4y agoI dug into this and is totally true. Soros is the head of a crime/power syndicate that is so crazy connected that they control the media, tech, even AI.
- hintymad 4y ago> Progressive DA's and a neutered police force are to blame for the rise in violent crime There are reports that police would book a criminal, yet DA simply released them right away. I'm not sure how much police can do about it.
- myko 4y agoThose reports are fake news
- jesuspiece 4y agofound the libertarian